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Court OKs child porn prosecution of minors distributing pictures of themselves

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Re: Court OKs child porn prosecution of minors distributing pictures of themselves

#211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No victim means no crime. (Morally, I'm using the word "crime" here to refer to a moral crime.) But it also means that the prosecution of such non-crimes is itself a crime, meaning the "guilty" party here is the victim and everyone involved in their prosecution, up to and including the supreme court, is criminal.

Except that child pornography is a Strict Liability crime (same as drunk driving). In Strict Liability, intent doesn't matter. mens rea is irrelevant.

Except that I'm pointing out (and explicitly said) that the law here is creating a moral crime and thus is itself corrupt, so citing the nature of the law is merely whitewashing criminal behavior.

Re: Court OKs child porn prosecution of minors distributing pictures of themselves

#212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No victim means no crime. (Morally, I'm using the word "crime" here to refer to a moral crime.) But it also means that the prosecution of such non-crimes is itself a crime, meaning the "guilty" party here is the victim and everyone involved in their prosecution, up to and including the supreme court, is criminal.

> No victim means no crime This isn't true in the least. Jaywalking and speeding can be done in a world with "population: 1", yet caught on camera would constitute a crime.

Nope, neither of them are crimes and in fact, prosecuting someone for either of them is actually a crime.

You're misusing the word crime here, despite me being very explicit about what I'm talking about.

The law does not determine crime-- morality determines that the law is criminal itself, as I've shown.

Re: Court OKs child porn prosecution of minors distributing pictures of themselves

#213
post #30

What other things that you can do to yourself are illegal? Suicide. Abortion in some places. What if I cut a piece of my body and eat it, is that cannibalism?

> What if I cut a piece of my body and eat it, is that cannibalism? I think at that point, you're likely to be involuntarily committed anyway :)

What if it's a fingernail?

Re: Court OKs child porn prosecution of minors distributing pictures of themselves

#216
post #54

I'll be the bad guy here and say that these laws should all just go away. It is just too convenient to plant "evidence" be it alcohol, drugs, or this. The idea that minors cannot consent is correct. Children are not a scaled small version of adults. They need to develop not just grow physically and children are vulnerable. We need to protect vulnerable members of our society. However, like with so many things in life…

> There's a quote about doing the same thing and expecting different results... It's the definition of insanity. The abortion topic is interesting because we're talking about how we socially define a human life in a realm where science can't help at all (or at least has failed to give a concrete answer thus far). If it was an accepted truth that human life begins at conception, then abortion is murder. Even our laws…

There is a lot to disagree with in your statement.

First, you use "murder" incorrectly. Abortion, in the US, is legal, and therefore not murder. Murder is defined as an illegal killing. That is why when someone is given the death penalty, they are said to be killed, not murdered. We say soldiers kill the enemy, not murder the enemy. By using "murder" you are adopting the conflation that anti-abortion activists have been (apparently) successful in promoting.

Second, nobody doubts that a zygote is alive. Nearly every cell in your body is alive (barring hair, nails, upper layers of skin, recently recycled cells), including sperm and eggs. When an egg and a sperm fuse, the result is also alive. The question is whether the rights of the zygote->blastula->fetus->baby trump the rights of the woman who is carrying it.

Obviously, by the time it becomes a baby, the baby's rights trump the desires of the woman carrying it, in general -- everybody agrees on that. Some people conceive (pun not intended) of the fertilized egg as being fully human, something God ordained and which is the vessel for a soul which has been waiting for that very zygote, and by aborting it, one is subverting God's will and destroying the intended future destiny of that soul.

Others don't share that belief. There is certainly no bright line dividing when that fetus is developed enough that its rights are superior to that of its mother, and deciding where to place that light should not be taken lightly and will cause discomfort. But we deal with such things all the time. It is legal to drive 45 MPH on the street near my house, but not 46. Yes it is somewhat arbitrary but not unreasonable either. That we have to make an uneasy boundary somewhere on the continuum isn't reason to declare that the speed limit should be zero, or that there should be no speed limit at all.

It should also be noted that at the time Roe v Wade was decided, Protestants and even evangelical Protestants by and large were not bothered by the decision. Catholics were, of course. It wasn't until the rise of the Moral Majority that the issue became objectionable to so many religious groups.

Re: Court OKs child porn prosecution of minors distributing pictures of themselves

#217
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some states have a (I think it's called) Romeo and Juliet law that does in fact protect say 19yo dating 16yo or some range depending on the state.

In Canada its within 2 years for 12 (or 13?) year olds (I.e. a 10/11 year old can consent with a 12/13 year old) and within 5 years for 14/15 year olds. Though I'm not sure if that covers self distribution of cp (e.g. if a 14 year old sends some nudes to another 14 year old)

AFAIK, many countries define child porn completely separately from consensual sex, to the point where it's illegal for a minor to have nude pictures of themselves, let alone someone they legally have sex with.

Re: Court OKs child porn prosecution of minors distributing pictures of themselves

#218
post #7

What is the rationale behind defining child porn age The first case is something that actually happened to a friend of mine. He was 23 and dating a 17 year old, got convicted, sent to prison, and is now labeled a sex offender for life. Are there any countries out there that take a sane approach to this moral conundrum?

The rationale is the age of majority. As a parent, I have a right to control the influences in my daughter's life - save for some exceptions around mandatory education and maintaining basic health. That means whom she associates with, and how images of her taken are used save for those taken of her while in public and not under duress of compulsion. Why is that so hard to understand?

So you outsource your parenting to the police and the courts?

I absolutely agree that you have a right to control the influences in your kids' lives (to some extent, at least). But why do you need to involve the law in this way?

Say your daughter receives a lewd photo from an underage male. Now she's in possession of child porn (whether she wanted the photo or not) and could end up on a sex offender registry for life. How is that sane?

And the guy who sent her the picture is "trafficking in child pornography"? C'mon. That's ridiculous.

Many of these crimes are on the book with "strict liability"; that is, the mere fact of existence or possession triggers culpability, and intent doesn't enter into the equation.

I think the better model is in places where the age of consent is at some reasonable age below the age of majority (no, I don't have a good definition for "reasonable", but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try), as it is in many places. There are no legal ramifications of sexual behavior down to that age, but parents are, as always, free to set limits and impose consequences if they aren't obeyed.

Re: Court OKs child porn prosecution of minors distributing pictures of themselves

#219
post #121
post #42

The idea that it is constitutional to charge someone with a felony for taking a picture of their own body is absurd. The judges were just too chicken to strike the entire statute. Actually, my apologies, that's unfair to the chicken.

Let me add - transmitting a photo of your genitals to someone uninvited is pretty awful, and should be illegal for a completely different reason. So no mistake about this guy. The bigger question is if it was intended to be received by the adult, are they both guilty? Or just the adult at that point? It seems to me the biggest hinge with this case is that the recipient didn't want the pic and actually called the cops…

> transmitting a photo of your genitals to someone uninvited is pretty awful, and should be illegal for a completely different reason.

We should really cover this sort of thing under the existing indecent exposure laws.

Re: Court OKs child porn prosecution of minors distributing pictures of themselves

#220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This case is such atrocious abuse of power. The fallout from this case did not affect nearly enough people. Think of all the enablers of this behavior at the various stages. The patriarchy has much of America in their clutch at various levels of so-called "public" service. Why was this man never reported? Everyone covered up for him. Standard operating procedure for America.

What does this have to do with the so-called patriarchy?

"The patriarchy" has evolved to mean "something I don't like" so it's a pretty accurate use of the term.
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