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To Protect Voting, Use Open-Source Software

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Re: To Protect Voting, Use Open-Source Software

#211

Post by vertex-four »

0xffff2 wrote: post #196
vertex-four wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the point of a polling station is so that there's provably no coercion. You fill out your ballot in secret, you're not permitted to take a photograph of it, and you place it in the ballot box without telling anybody what you've voted for. The more you allow people to vote from their homes, the more likely it is that people can be coerced into voting the way their partner, employer, or otherwise, want them to.

>You fill out your ballot in secret, you're not permitted to take a photograph of it, and you place it in the ballot box without telling anybody what you've voted for. In the US, only one of those is guaranteed [0]. In California, where I can get an absentee ballot just by asking for it, none of those is guaranteed. [0] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-04-03/ballot-se...

Yes, well, the US also broadly thinks electronic vote recording is a good idea. Let's not pretend it's any good at designing voting systems.

Re: To Protect Voting, Use Open-Source Software

#212

Post by BurningFrog »

EGreg wrote: post #209
BurningFrog wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know the technology, but I assume that system could be built. The bad part about that is that if I can validate my vote after the fact, someone else can also demand to see what I voted for, and that opens the door for vote buying, intimidation etc.

No, not at all. You can vote anonymously and verify your vote but no one else can map that back to your identity. As for rubber hose crypanalysis, that is possible now. Buying votes is already done.

You can buy the promise of a vote now, but it can't be verified on the individual level. On the precinct level you can, and that happens.

Re: To Protect Voting, Use Open-Source Software

#213

Post by deathanatos »

Ajedi32 wrote: post #91
ai_ja_nai wrote: post #29

This is plain bullshit. Opensource gives no guarantee that the vote won't be altered by whoever runs the machine. What we need is a zero-knowledge proof: we need the entire voting dataset to be publicly downloadable and some kind of checksumming so that, while maintaining anonimity, I can 1)check that my vote is the same 2)run whole the counting in a blink on my PC. This gives much better guarantees of no tampering

One other requirement too. 3) Users should not be able to prove to another person who they voted for This is to prevent people from using threats of violence or promise of reward to coerce others into voting a certain way. Unfortunately, this requirement is very hard to fulfil while also fulfilling requirement 1.

4. Check that all votes in the tally belong to actual, eligible voters.

Verifying your vote is in the sum, and tallied, is not good enough if the result is swamped with, or more craftily, the balance just tipped by fake votes.

I have no idea how you would implement that.

Re: To Protect Voting, Use Open-Source Software

#214

Post by eksemplar »

pgeorgi wrote: post #188
eksemplar wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well if your country is doing digital elections without citizen signatures and block chain, then chances are you live in a corrupt country. :p

The point is to do pen&paper elections instead. It's the ultimate "open source" solution since everybody who can hold a crayon in the right direction can participate in the verification of the process.

The problem with pen and paper elections is that they rely on honest counting.

It's true that it's easier to manipulate a terrible digital system but that doesn't mean pen and paper is safe.

Block chain technology would offer an open record that couldn't be manipulated, something paper does not.

I mean, I live in Denmark, one of the least corrupt countries in the world and we've had politicians caught changing votes with a pencil and an eraser during the count.

Re: To Protect Voting, Use Open-Source Software

#215

Post by eksemplar »

3pt14159 wrote: post #132
eksemplar wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you could do some secure voting software if all your citizens had a secure two factor signature and you used block chain. I'm not sure why you would do it in a non-corrupt country though.

And how do you prove that all of those citizens exist? We have a secure, provable, relatively cheap method right now: Paper ballots and public observers at elections. Compared to the stakes the cost is peanuts.

I live in Denmark, every citizen has a social security number and we all have access to a digital identification method called "nemID".

It's basically a login that's tied to a piece of paper containing a hash table of numbers you use for two factoring.

It's the safest citizen verification system we've ever had and it's basically used for any for of identification in the digital world from banking to using our public sector.

Our government as an example used it to send digital mail to everyone in a secure mailbox called "eBoks" saving us billions in not sending paper (and bankrupting our postal service as a side effect).

We still use paper ballots for elections but it's frankly easier to fake an identity using those than if you were to sign in with "nemId". Today all you need to be allowed to vote is the paper you received and the right sex/age range. So basically I could vote for my brother if I obtained his ballot. With NemId I'd need his username/password as well as his keycard.

Obviously you'd have to anonymize it, but some digital systems being broken doesn't mean they all are or that our current system is that great.

I've observed elections in the balkans, and they sure aren't safe or democratic despite being done they way you prefer, because it's so easy to exploit if you manipulate the paper trail.

Re: To Protect Voting, Use Open-Source Software

#216

Post by eksemplar »

zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC wrote: post #131
eksemplar wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you could do some secure voting software if all your citizens had a secure two factor signature and you used block chain. I'm not sure why you would do it in a non-corrupt country though.

No, you can't. Elections as completely unlike any other scenario that you might be trying to secure. Two-factor auth is of no use for elections.

I live in Denmark where we have a digital identity called "nenId". It's the safest form of citizen identification we've ever had and it would be immensely more safe for elections than our current system of sending out paper cards to be traded in for a vote.

On top of that the block chain could offer us a record that couldn't be manipulated.

Sure we don't have a lot of problems with voter fraud in our current system, but that doesn't mean it's not extremely vulnerable because it relies on honest counting.

Re: To Protect Voting, Use Open-Source Software

#217

Post by eksemplar »

scierama wrote: post #136

"The blockchain is an undeniably ingenious invention – the brainchild of a person or group of people known by the pseudonym, Satoshi Nakamoto." It isn't even definitively known who invented blockchain, it is behind the pyramid scheme known as bitcoin and no, no way should that ever be used in voting system computers.

The block chain is best known for bitcoin, but it's actually a really awesome tool for keeping public records safe.

Things like land ownership is vulnerable to manipulation. We don't think about it much in the west because our governments don't change the name of the owner of your house for money, but it's a real problem in corrupt countries.

It's also a major problem in shipping. Where ownership of containers is done with paper forms, that because of corruption have a higher cost of shipping than the actual container itself, and containers still get claimed with faked forms.

Know what Mærsk did to secure the container contracts? They used the block chain.

Much like container forms or land contracts, paper votes are only safe if your system isn't corrupt. With the block chain you could remove the need of relying on the system to be honest because everyone would be able to read the record.

Right now you rely on independent observers, and I hate to tell you this, but we've been unable to influence elections in corrupt countries so far.

When Putin wins with 900% of the votes in regions that hate him you can say that it seems unlikely, if they'd used block chain you would be able to see that it was a lie.

Re: To Protect Voting, Use Open-Source Software

#218

Post by zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC »

eksemplar wrote: post #216
zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, you can't. Elections as completely unlike any other scenario that you might be trying to secure. Two-factor auth is of no use for elections.

I live in Denmark where we have a digital identity called "nenId". It's the safest form of citizen identification we've ever had and it would be immensely more safe for elections than our current system of sending out paper cards to be traded in for a vote. On top of that the block chain could offer us a record that couldn't be manipulated. Sure we don't have a lot of problems with voter fraud in our current system,…

There is no such thing as "safest form" of anything. You have to consider what threats you are trying to defend against. The threats that you have to defend elections against are completely different than anything else. In particular, elections have to defend against a government that tries to stay in power. A centralized form of identification can be the most dangerous thing for an election ever.

Re: To Protect Voting, Use Open-Source Software

#219

Post by dang »

cgmg wrote: post #168
scierama wrote: post #136

"The blockchain is an undeniably ingenious invention – the brainchild of a person or group of people known by the pseudonym, Satoshi Nakamoto." It isn't even definitively known who invented blockchain, it is behind the pyramid scheme known as bitcoin and no, no way should that ever be used in voting system computers.

I don't think you know what a pyramid scheme is. How about learning the definition of the words you use before throwing them around?

Personal attacks will get you banned on HN, regardless of how wrong someone else is, so please don't post like this again.

Re: To Protect Voting, Use Open-Source Software

#220

Post by dang »

scierama wrote: post #206
cgmg wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you know what a pyramid scheme is. How about learning the definition of the words you use before throwing them around?

How about you learn some manners, learn to Google, learn to read the results that will appear on your screen.

Personal attacks and incivility will get you banned on HN, regardless of how wrong someone else is, so please don't post like this again.
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