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How to Disagree

paulgraham.com

211–220 of 238 posts

Re: How to Disagree

#211
post #15
post #6

Mind if I extend your Disagreement Hierarchy? DH-1. Flamebaiting. This is when you preempt that with which you would disagree by stating your case in such a way as to elicit quick disagreement (in the form of DH0 to DH6). Usually done by noticing a subset of all data, forming a hypothesis to explain only that subset, and presenting it as a conclusion. Often done without even realizing it. The relational database mode…

I think the Flamebaiting category is a useful addition to PG's hierarchy. The new category brings to mind an interesting property of this hierarchy though, namely that it seems to be difficult to respond to an "argument" with a higher order technique than that which was originally presented. For example, if one were disagreeing with a purely ad hominem rant, one would find it futile and nearly impossible to disagree…

I think this concept was best present here: http://xkcd.com/406/

Re: How to Disagree

#213
It's a brilliant essay, but then what do you expect from Paul Graham? It's eloquently put and finely crafted. This is a really interesting analytical tool.

I think there's some amusement to be found in an agreement hierarchy:

  AH-0: Raw compliments.
  AH-1: Ad hominem compliments.
  AH-2: Compliments on style.
  AH-3: Agreement with the main point.
  AH-4: Extension of a minor point.
  AH-5: Major corollary; extension of the main point
  AH-6: Citation to make another, more overarching point.
Can anyone beat me up the ladder to AH-5?

Re: How to Disagree

#214
What about objections? Specifically, what about implicit objections of the form "What about [thing you did not mention but by implication ought to have, in light of which your argument is incomplete and/or inelegantly articulable and therefore as good as refuted for the purposed of this forum]?"

Also, do you not believe in refutation by reductio ad absurdum? I'm thinking your system is liable to classify a reductio as a mere contradiction, if not "mean."

And how about "meta" comments regarding the framing of the issue or whether an assumed issue really is an issue or can be addressed properly prior to some other issue?

Re: How to Disagree

#215
If you wish to see DH6 in action and completely for religion, Berkeley, Kant and the scientific exploration of the grand unificaiton theory at LCH, purchse "The Nightmare Treacheries" by Scott St. Clair Henderson

Re: How to Disagree

#216
If you wish to read DH6 in action and completely for Religion, Science and the grand unification theory at LHC, read the Nightmare Treacheries by Scott St. Clair Henderson

Re: How to Disagree

#217
Epic. In my dreams, this article will become so popular that political commentators will use your Disagreement Hierarchy to evaluate political speeches. (Most political debate rarely rises above DH4.)

I'm going to reference your article every time I respond to criticism. Thank you.

Love your other stuff, too, Paul.

Re: How to Disagree

#218
Please note there is virtually no paid employment in this industry, so I cannot post in the jobs section and have chosen this as the next best section to draw the opportunity to your attention without it being regarded as miscategorized. I am looking for a job as an associate or a business partner. I created www.onlineanalporn.com and www.xxxwetharddripping.com and wish to leave this facet of my life for opportunities with less scrutiny. Thanks for reading and visit my website and imagine what I can do for your business. Thanks Suna

Re: How to Disagree

#219
Please note there is virtually no paid employment in this industry, so I cannot post in the jobs section and have chosen this as the next best section to draw the opportunity to your attention without it being regarded as miscategorized. I am looking for a job as an associate or a business partner. I created www.onlineanalporn.com and www.xxxwetharddripping.com and wish to leave this facet of my life for opportunities with less scrutiny. Thanks for reading and visit my website and imagine what I can do for your business. Thanks Suna

Re: How to Disagree

#220

I couldn't disagree more. This cultivated and mannered ideal that you espouse is rarely practiced on any real blog or forum with a passionate community, or an intelligent community versed in the issues, and that's ok . And your effort to put this out here like the 10 Commandments is just a typical male, geeky bloggy power play. And there, that may be an intolerable insult; it may even be incorrect! but it's not an ad…

"Geeks and males and bloggers need to be characterized, judged and condemned where necessary."

Here is where I believe you're wrong. There is no need to judge and condemn individuals in a web discussion, in fact it's counterproductive. When an argument becomes heated and sparks fly, that heat and fire should be directed at the content of the argument. Otherwise you're just insulting someone, who will then insult you back, and bingo, a typical message-board or blog-comment back-and-forth name-calling session has begun.

I agree that it can be necessary to point it out when someone is using tone to leave "emotional trapdoors for people to respond to," but if the way you do it is to attack the person's character rather than by showing that the appeal to emotion is a poor argument, then you're just heading towards a flame war.

You say that attitudes such as "don't feed the trolls" lead to dull conformity. Don't you think that the dismal sameness of all troll-provoked flame wars is far more dull than an atmosphere of simple courtesy in which people actually listen to each other? I would go further than "don't feed the trolls"--in any web discussion that has descended into acrimonious personal attacks, one should unilaterally withdraw. You cannot have the last word on the Internet and the smart way to avoid flame wars is to leave them.

It's trolls and flamers that are the surest way for a forum discussion to go downhill. The best way to help a forum be interesting and lively is not to remind everyone of "rules of rhetoric" or of conduct but to follow them oneself. But many people haven't thought about it in a systematic way, so it can be helpful to read a set of recommendations and apply whichever of them you wish. Publishing such things is not an attempt to control, but to persuade. You may have a beef with the attitude of "smug nits" who tell you what to do, but that doesn't mean that their recommendations aren't good ones.

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