Antisocial Coding: My Year at GitHub • Hacker News Board

Re: Antisocial Coding: My Year at GitHub

#211

Post by Shank » Wed, Jul 05, 2017, 8:30 PM UTC

pyre wrote: post #159

openmosix wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reading the full article, it strikes me how you can be "inclusive" if you are constantly highlighting the differences. The fact, for example, she dismisses PRs or code reviews because made by white males. Or the blog post on her first deliverable, rewritten by a white male. I don't see what could be the benefit to point that out in every sentence: that all of that is made in malice because of gender and race? If I ha…

> The fact, for example, she dismisses PRs or code reviews because made by > white males. Or the blog post on her first deliverable, rewritten by a > white male. I really feel like you are injecting your own issues into this. For example, here is an excerpt that you're referring to: > However, it soon became apparent that this promising start would not last > for long. For my first few pull requests, I was getting fe…

> I've never worked anywhere that I felt the need to start critiquing the code of people from other teams who were working on systems that I might not even have experience with.

This is probably a side effect of how GitHub evolved. Watching some of their earlier talks and comparing that with how they function now, the introduction of managers was a recent addition. It probably didn't change how past engineers operate in the company, e.g., "chime in if your comments are relevant, even if you aren't necessarily requested to chime in."

Re: Antisocial Coding: My Year at GitHub

#212

Post by unclesaamm » Wed, Jul 05, 2017, 8:33 PM UTC

twerkmonsta wrote: post #72

"The same day that I had this review, I got some devastating personal news. I have bipolar depression and was already in a bad place mentally, so I found myself feeling crushed and hopeless. In an attempt to deal with things I ended up taking a dangerously high dose of my anti-anxiety medication." I'm all for being compassionate and helping people through tough times, but does this sound like a stable person?

Congratulations, I think you managed to set a new record for ableism on Hacker News. I'm actually struggling to formulate a response because disqualifying people from discussing their issues because of mental illness is so extraordinarily low.

You literally just said, "I'm all for being compassionate and helping people through tough times," then proceeded to shit on her for undergoing exactly that.

For one, I hope you aren't in a management position in a company, because discriminating by mental illness is illegal. Second, I hope you never get mentally ill -- which can happen to anyone -- because you would have to confront people with attitudes like yours and you would realize what garbage this is.

Re: Antisocial Coding: My Year at GitHub

#213

Post by eqdw » Wed, Jul 05, 2017, 8:34 PM UTC

pyre wrote: post #170

thehardsphere wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This one way street also extends to the way Coraline's accomplishments at GitHub are presented in the article. There's all of this talk about all of the code she pushed and all of the popular features she wrote, but there's no context as to whether or not those things were the metrics by which her performance was being measured, e.g. what her management was expecting her to do. So when the negative review is mentione…

You're saying: > no context as to whether or not those things were the metrics by which her performance was being measured But per the blog post: > Based on the positive feedback from my one-on-ones and how well I was tracking against the goals set for the next engineering level, I was hopeful of getting a promotion and a raise. I'm confused as to how one could be "tracking against the goals set for the next engineer…

I'm reading between the lines a lot, and therefore am probably wrong, but I suspect what happened was one of the two following scenarios:

1. (Less likely) She did a lot of work, but it was not high priority work. It was good engineering but on things that the company did not consider important. She was given this freedom and then, in the company's eyes (fairly or unfairly) considered to have wasted it.

2. (More likely) She had good technical skills and bad social skills. When she was able to go heads-down and crank out PRs and tickets, everyone was happy, but she was socially abrasive and alienated her coworkers. This could be because she is an unpleasant person, or because they are unpleasant people, or it could be an honest misunderstanding or personality conflict, but in every case it detracts from the productivity of everyone, generally.

I suspect (2) played a big part, mostly because I've seen this same dynamic play out at other places before. As a borderline autist, I'm highly sympathetic to people in that position, and generally believe that it's better for everyone involved if management can find a way to work to their strengths. However, drastic differences in interaction style are what they are, and at the end of the day, your employer's priority is their productivity, not your happiness. Sometimes these things happen. They suck. At least we're fortunate enough to work in an industry where we have half a dozen other options for work at any time

Re: Antisocial Coding: My Year at GitHub

#214

Post by eqdw » Wed, Jul 05, 2017, 8:37 PM UTC

ohthehugemanate wrote: post #75

problems wrote: post #12

Isn't this the person who ran a code of conduct that has a website which includes things like "thoughtless use of pronouns" and mentions meritocracy as an evil, not a goal to strive for? Can't really say I'm expecting someone like that to be low friction.

Meritocracy is actually a very damaging thing, the way we tend to implement it in tech. Without concrete and public metrics of "merit", it becomes a buzzword for reinforcing the biases (conscious or not) of the evaluators. Particularly in tech, those biases tend to favor white, upper middle class, males. This kind of bias is demonstrated over and over in studies, even (and in some cases, especially) among people who…

> Without concrete and public metrics of "merit", it becomes a buzzword for reinforcing the biases (conscious or not) of the evaluators.

I wish we could have discussions like this in the wider community without people going knee-jerk against the idea of it, itself.

I'd be willing to accept that a lot of companies here are nepotistic. I'd even be willing to accept that they cloak their nepotism in the rhetoric of meritocracy. But I have to draw the line at people opposing the idea itself. I have a hard time understanding how anyone could even hold that position. Don't you want the best people, at least in principle?

If people were more nuanced in these things we could hold discussions like "yes, this is a great ideal, but it gets corrupted. The problem is the corruption, not the ideal"

Re: Antisocial Coding: My Year at GitHub

#215

Post by DannyBee » Wed, Jul 05, 2017, 8:40 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #209

DannyBee wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"As I've understood the concept for something like a decade, PIPs are almost universally understood to be a soft form of firing." FWIW, they've never been at any company i've managed at, or org i've belonged to :) I certainly believe such companies exist, i'm not stupid. I just am not sure I believe they are as prevalent as you do. The only question in the room (from either HR or the manager) has always been "how do…

I'm not denying that you've worked in places where HR convinced line managers that PIPs were a "legitimate" management tool. But I am saying that in making that decision, HR at those places exhibited incompetence: they left a reasonable developer with significant professional experience in a position to wonder whether continuing to work on that team was rational. More on-point for the thread: I don't think it's reaso…

"But I am saying that in making that decision, HR at those places exhibited incompetence: they left a reasonable developer with significant professional experience in a position to wonder whether continuing to work on that team was rational."

I'm going to strongly disagree with this one, but it's clear you and i will not agree about this.

"More on-point for the thread: I don't think it's reasonable to argue that someone pointing this out is "cynical". :) " I still believe think it's incredibly cynical to assume and write that the only purpose of a PIP is to formally make up evidence so you can fire someone. Precisely because i've worked at places where that is very specifically not the intent.

Re: Antisocial Coding: My Year at GitHub

#216

Post by kaffee » Wed, Jul 05, 2017, 8:48 PM UTC

jitl wrote: post #87

This should not be flagged.

I agree. The article was welcome and well-written.

I only found out about this post because the alternative (unofficial) interface https://hckrnews.com/ manages to surface this given the number of votes it has received.

I appreciate HN's moderation, on average. It's a shame the process of moderation isn't more transparent. I have no idea why this was flagged.

Re: Antisocial Coding: My Year at GitHub

#217

Post by roguecoder » Wed, Jul 05, 2017, 8:49 PM UTC

opportune wrote: post #49

The main thing I've taken away from the whole github situation is that, as a tech company, you should just entirely stay away from public involvement in the social justice sphere. That doesn't mean exclusively hiring white men and sending out Kalanick-style emails; it means keeping your work environment as professional and politically neutral as possible unless absolutely necessary. My employer does a good job of thi…

Those consequences are only present for women or people of color: white men don't take the same reputation hit for promoting diversity and fairness: https://hbr.org/2016/03/women-and-minorities-are-penalized-f...

Re: Antisocial Coding: My Year at GitHub

#218

Post by gxespino » Wed, Jul 05, 2017, 8:50 PM UTC

specialist wrote: post #182

cholantesh wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was there really something wrong with that phrasing? How would you improve it? Genuinely curious; I think I'd have phrased it the same way (though at every place I've worked we'd have done a review like this face to face), and I find it pretty non-confrontational. Enjoyed the letter you shared. Gene is truly missed.

"Hi cholantesh! Just saw your new survey. Looks great! Hey, have you seen the HRC's recommendations for surveying gender? I've used their guidelines in the past. Very helpful! http://www.hrc.org/resources/collecting-transgender-inclusiv... TLDR: They suggest splitting the gender question into two parts. As you know, this is a super important issue for me. Progress! Exciting! If you're busy, I'll make a pull request.…

Why thank you for that clarification! I'm quite busy but can definitely submit a PR within the next few days. Feel free to do it first and I'll take a look, though. :)

Re: Antisocial Coding: My Year at GitHub

#219

Post by sethrin » Wed, Jul 05, 2017, 8:50 PM UTC

ivraatiems wrote: post #130

rndmwlk wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>However, as an organization, Github can and should do better than that, and I think here that it did not. Consider if the situations were reversed. What if some white male engineer was simply being terse in an email to her. Might she attribute it to rudeness, sexism, or transphobia? If the company fired the engineer would you be arguing that she should be a bit more charitable in her interpretations? It can be very…

> Consider if the situations were reversed. What if some white male engineer was simply being terse in an email to her. Might she attribute it to rudeness, sexism, or transphobia? If the company fired the engineer would you be arguing that she should be a bit more charitable in her interpretations? These are good questions, and I don't know the answers. I'd like to tell you how I'd react, but I think given the curren…

That was my confusion as well. I think that 99% of the working world would kill for the kind of conditions where mildly harsh words get you fired. Okay, maybe that wasn't the best metaphor there.

What I see in this is a sort of passive transphobia. It's not that anyone harbors any grudge, it's that they harbor no kind feelings. The idea that someone deserves whatever happens to them, for good or ill, is just an excuse to turn a blind eye to any harm that occurs to them. When the best response you get from people is indifference, you're probably not going to have a long and happy life.

I think Coraline has more passion than good judgment, but on the other hand. I'm glad someone is out there to raise these issues and take the resulting flak. I worry about what kind of similar discrimination I'm going to face. If this is what goes on in the enlightened liberal utopias we've all got a tough row to hoe.

Re: Antisocial Coding: My Year at GitHub

#220

Post by roguecoder » Wed, Jul 05, 2017, 8:50 PM UTC

opportune wrote: post #49

The main thing I've taken away from the whole github situation is that, as a tech company, you should just entirely stay away from public involvement in the social justice sphere. That doesn't mean exclusively hiring white men and sending out Kalanick-style emails; it means keeping your work environment as professional and politically neutral as possible unless absolutely necessary. My employer does a good job of thi…

And of course, many of the products we code are inherently political. It is no more possible for a social network like Github to be "politically neutral" than it would be possible for a bank to be "security neutral".