Why is this on HN?
Threads that push the narrative of the "Prison Industrial Complex", and also "Universal Basic Income", are always welcomed on HN.
Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard
211–220 of 427 posts
Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard
#212Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think it helps show the cost of crime and look at different solutions but I don't see how it contains the solution. I had a car stolen by some guys once. They used my car to drive around breaking in to other cars and stealing things. The police caught them and took me to me car so that I could get it back. I also had to go through all the stuff in the back and tell the police what wasn't mine. It turns out they had…
It's a numbers game really. At present the numbers show that prison makes people worse. I'll add my own anecdata and say that I've seen people come out of prison much worse than they went in. And, if, for $75,000 per person per annum we can't work towards better outcomes, then I think we can agree something is very wrong with the current approach.
Whether or not it makes them worse, it keeps them away from everyone else where they can do serious damage.
If you want to fix what is wrong you start by not labeling people "felons" for life--change every law so that when someone gets out they get their full rights restored--voting, right to bear arms, all of it. And do away with sex offender registries and all of it. If they re-offend, put them away for good.
Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard
#213Another option is to put non-violent offenders in camps. The deal is if they stay in the camp and follow the rules, they can serve out their sentence there. Run away and they go to the real prisons.
If somebody is so much of a non threat to society he can be housed in a voluntary prison camp he shouldn't be in prison at all. Establish a real community service program, not one that you can pay your way out of, and sentence them to service hours. There are dozens of ways to allow a petty law breaker to contribute.
The threat a person poses is only one consideration. Justice requires punishment (btw, mercy only makes sense in light of punishment as justly deserved; you can only be merciful to someone who deserves punishment). If the crime committed is proportional with imprisonment, even if that person is not a threat, there is nothing unjust about that in principle. (The question of whether there are people in prison who ought not to be is a particular consideration not relevant here.) There are perhaps practical considerations that can affect the form the punishment may take, of course, but the point here is that threat posed is not the only or even the most essential consideration where just punishment is concerned.
Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard
#214Earlier quoted context omitted.
Back to the topic, prisons are just another haven for contract robbing. The prison contracts everything from security to mopping. Everything is 3x more expensive. Prison costs are a sink to our society. Except taxpayers foot the bill. Theres an economic incentive to keeping crime low and right now were all being robbed blind, in this area as well (because yes there are too many to count) The amount who are released w…
'The prison contracts everything from security to mopping.' In the vast majority of American prisons, the prisoners do the mopping. Security is still done by guards, but nearly every other job in the prison is done by the offenders. It's much cheaper this way - for state prisons average starting wage for non-industrial jobs is $0.25/hr. Industrial jobs don't start much higher, but they tend to have a higher cap aroun…
So where is the $75k cost to house them coming from? Clearly some contract is too expensive and something is not adding up.
For that price, we should have Harvard classes taught at prisons, and maybe these inmates could have a shot at using their disparate lifestyle extremes to have new ways to employ/create new businesses that can improve society in areas where they see/experience/witness need for improvement, and put our tax payers to good work.
If every prisoner is cooking mopping and doing whatever for free, where is the $75k/yr coming from?
Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard
#215Earlier quoted context omitted.
At the risk of being boorish about the subject... I was recently released from Las Vegas County Jail (CCDC) where all sentenced inmates, myself included, are forced , by state law, to "work" in some manner in the jail. In this case, work consisted of 11-hour shifts, 6 days a week, of ultra back-breaking kitchen work. We were not even allowed to have water cups anywhere outside the break room. They actually yelled fas…
I'm guessing you mean Aramark ( http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/prison-strike-protest-ar... ) not Aero-Mark Corporation, an aerospace company. Though perhaps I'm cynical enough to believe that the latter's mission statement "The Aero-mark team bases its work ethic on unity, quality, and accountability. We are one company, one team, succeeding together." could be espoused by a company that abuses prison labor. The…
Ha...yes my bad...quick Google search failed me.
Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard
#216Until they murder someone you care about. I sincerely believe there is a reason that people behind bars are behind bars. I don't believe the feel-good narratives about noble prisoners who just had a bad turn in life, especially these days where people with long rap sheets are routinely set free to re-offend at will. I've seen them up close--there's not 1 in 20 that I feel sorry for. Every story is one of a downward spiral where numerous opportunities for betterment were passed up due to a messed up brain. The ones who want to improve themselves have chances to do so, but they tend to drink or use drugs, re-align with their criminal buddies, and re-offend.
ETA: I have to emphasize, this is the same bs that allows ISIS to continue to conduct successful terror operations in the first world. Either decide that you want civilization, or get the hell out of the way for people who do and stop calling us fascists when it's more about taking out the trash.
Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard
#217Earlier quoted context omitted.
At the risk of being boorish about the subject... I was recently released from Las Vegas County Jail (CCDC) where all sentenced inmates, myself included, are forced , by state law, to "work" in some manner in the jail. In this case, work consisted of 11-hour shifts, 6 days a week, of ultra back-breaking kitchen work. We were not even allowed to have water cups anywhere outside the break room. They actually yelled fas…
That is indeed totally crazy. I wish I had some way to verify your story, as I as a reader can't know who sits behind the keyboard on the other side.
> I wish I had some way to verify your story, as I as a reader can't know who sits behind the keyboard on the other side.
I could never in a 1000 years make up the narrative of my life. I often cannot believe I've lived it.
Every word I write here on HN is true, although you simply have no idea how I wish it wasn't so.
Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard
#218Earlier quoted context omitted.
I agree with who on the whole but I'm going to play....Angel's advocate? (What do you call the person playing devil's advocate to the Devil's advocate?) There is a (relatively famous) prison in Norway where the rehabilitation is so effective that the prisoner's are given these jobs and are handed chainsaws, picks, the keys to the boat off the island. The prisoners are the ones ferrying people to and from the prison.…
How common is that though? Taking one example is pretty fraught especially because the prisoners that are sent to that prison are naturally going to be of the lower risk, non-violent type unless that's how a majority of the prisons are run. There are prisons in the US with very open security too (though mainly for rich white collar criminals but then that's a group with a low likely-hood of attempting to escape). Hec…
nope, its not just an anecdotal example, its an entire country, and multiple countries in Europe do this now. They are collectively intelligent enough to agree everyone is better off when you enable people for success instead of punishment, torture, emotional and social isolation, abuse, lack of food and healthy outlets, and give them access to a job, a sense of pride, and allow them to reabilitate themselves.
but this is all based on a deep rooted belief that most people are good, and crime is usually a result of low income/and growing up in places stuck in a cycle of socioeconomic hopelessness (atleast the kind of crime people are imprisoned for, weve already established wallstreet bankers commit crime and dont go to prison), taking people out of these toxic environments and equipping them with a job where they are exposed to society and have a chance to rebuild their lives is beneficial, for them, and society as a whole.
In U.S. politics we have 300million people binned into two extremist views and prison reform is'nt trending hot on twitter right now and if it was it would be used as a litmus test to pit half the country against the other and a debate about whether people deserve the life they have or can better themselves and deserve to be treated better and we all know how that has played out in politics recently. bigotry and stereotyping win.
Very little hope for the incarcerated in this country
Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard
#219Earlier quoted context omitted.
If hard labor is the punishment, and the punishment is commensurate with the crime, then no, it's not slavery. Slavery obtains under different conditions.
It's certainly involuntary servitude, and I'm not sure there's a meaningful difference between that and slavery. Also, the word "except" is our key hint here.
It is involuntary (all punishment is!), but it's not servitude in the same sense that slavery is. If you want to call that "slavery" nonetheless, that's up to you, but you'd be equivocating. There is a difference between slavery as an institution of unjust forced submission and "slavery" as just punishment for crimes committed.
Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard
#220Earlier quoted context omitted.
At the risk of being boorish about the subject... I was recently released from Las Vegas County Jail (CCDC) where all sentenced inmates, myself included, are forced , by state law, to "work" in some manner in the jail. In this case, work consisted of 11-hour shifts, 6 days a week, of ultra back-breaking kitchen work. We were not even allowed to have water cups anywhere outside the break room. They actually yelled fas…
> If you refused to work, you were put in the box and 5 days were added to your sentence. Don't you need a judge to determine that?
CCDC gives approx 10 days a month gain time to all sentenced inmates regardless of if you work or not.
Actually working for the jail only provides you the opportunity to LOSE gain time, not get more.
If you refuse to work, you get up to 15 days in solitary confinement (the box, or I simply call it "jail" because its actually jail inside of jail) and lose 5 days of gain time, thus adding 5 days to your sentence.
However, it does not end there...one of the CO's that worked security in the kitchen often threatened to contact your sentencing judge and ask for extra time for screwing up in the kitchen.