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Leaked email from United Airlines CEO blames passenger for violent removal

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Re: Leaked email from United Airlines CEO blames passenger for violent removal

#211

Post by unprepare »

valuearb wrote: post #75
Shivetya wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I take issue with the idea it was over booked when it was the airline wanting to transport its own people in place of booked customers. If anything we shall get to witness if the power of social media can overcome such abuse, It has helped turn the tables a bit with policing but usually only when it occurs in a public setting. People do need to take note that this actually is another case of police abuse just at the…

So United should not have tried to board their flight personnel so that another plane full of passengers could sit on the tarmac for hours in Louisville with no crew?

is your logic that a plane full of passengers sitting on the tarmac is worse than a man being assaulted and dragged off a plane? Because if not, the answer to your question is a very obvious yes - they should be made to wait. I would happily wait on a plane if i knew it was to prevent someone being assaulted....

(though if the crew wasnt there, they wouldnt board the plane anyways, the other flight would've been cancelled or delayed, which happens all the time)

Re: Leaked email from United Airlines CEO blames passenger for violent removal

#212

Post by ntsplnkv3 »

cmurf wrote: post #190
valuearb wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So United should not have tried to board their flight personnel so that another plane full of passengers could sit on the tarmac for hours in Louisville with no crew?

This is not the fault of any passenger. The airline ceased to be civil when they shifted from an auction, to inviting police power on board. It was morally wrong for them to do this, and it was even worse for the police to agree to it. There's no ethical, legal, or contractual argument for what the airline did; or the power they claim to have in this letter. They do not have the power to deplane people for the reason…

They should've done a number of things before resorting to forcing people off. They should've increased the value far more before this occurred.

And on top of all that, there is no transparency at all on how they kick people off. And they have the audacity to talk nonchalantly about this man who had obligations refused to get off so he needed to be bloodied when they could've done so much more.

Sorry, it's not this man's fault someone got sick and a flight crew needs to be in Louisville. Hire more people or save 4 seats on every plane in the future. We shouldn't be responsible for a company's mistakes.

Re: Leaked email from United Airlines CEO blames passenger for violent removal

#213

Post by pdelbarba »

unprepare wrote: post #207
pdelbarba wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PPL ASEL will cost you about $8k (doable if you really want it) and a 172@$105/hr wet to travel around in at 110kts. Take two fearless friends and you have yourself a private airline.

Whats the time commitment like? is it full time for 3 months or a couple hours every weekend for 6 months ?

It took me 13 months all told but I had a lot going on at the time. If your expenses are low you can do it in 8 months or so but that's unusual. Note that I say expenses and not income, it's usually best to pay as you go and not go into the red month to month.

That said, if you live somewhere with a convenient airport and a decent rental fleet (more places than you'd expect) it's highly liberating. I live near Denver and have gotten bored and flown to Canon city and surrounding areas for the day. Also, Pilots n Paws is awesome

Re: Leaked email from United Airlines CEO blames passenger for violent removal

#214

Post by benji-york »

Noseshine wrote: post #70
benji-york wrote: post #58

I honestly don't understand the outrage. A person was legally required to do something he didn't want to do, he refused to relent and escalated the situation. The passenger is the only person I see as having done anything wrong here. I don't claim that there aren't better ways to handle the situation, but I also don't see any wrongdoing in how this shook out.

> A person was legally required to do something he didn't want to do That is your claim but it does not appear to be true. Read this comment on reddit from a lawyer (unless someone shows that to be wrong I'll assume it to be true): https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/64nluh/united_ceo_dou... (EDIT: The comment is actually just a quote of another comment here: https://thepointsguy.com/2017/04/your-rights-on-involun…

Let's set aside the legality issue for the moment and assume that United was not legally allowed to have the man removed from the flight. What then is the appropriate response of the passenger? Is non-cooperation (i.e., require people to physically remove you from your seat) the right thing to do? Is physically resisting (hitting, pushing, grappling with, etc.) those sent to remove you permissible?

Re: Leaked email from United Airlines CEO blames passenger for violent removal

#215

Post by devy »

true_religion wrote: post #116
protomyth wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reading the law, it seems very much like prioritizing employees over passengers is actually illegal.

I don't actually think so. Prioritising employees may very well be essential to the continued or optimal operation of your airline. For example, getting person A to a city so they can crew in place of a sick employee, where otherwise we would have a plane with no pilot.

From the cost perspective in retrospect, it's going to save them at least hundreds of millions from the tarnished branding, stock market lost and future lawsuits if their employees were to take a taxi / coach bus / or even private charter flights to commute.

Re: Leaked email from United Airlines CEO blames passenger for violent removal

#216

Post by bradleybuda »

pdelbarba wrote: post #184
cortesoft wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the alternative to commercial airlines for someone who isn't crazy rich?

PPL ASEL will cost you about $8k (doable if you really want it) and a 172@$105/hr wet to travel around in at 110kts. Take two fearless friends and you have yourself a private airline.

The best advice I've received while earning my PPL is: "fly for fun, not for transportation". When you add the stress of "I/we need to get to our destination on time", mistakes get made.

Re: Leaked email from United Airlines CEO blames passenger for violent removal

#217

Post by tyingq »

antisthenes wrote: post #205
tyingq wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Thinking you can have the good parts of competition without the bad parts Er, okay. There are other products and services with heavy competition that aren't a terrible experience. There's more going on here than just generic capitalism.

> Er, okay. There are other products and services with heavy competition that aren't a terrible experience. Please, elaborate, and be specific about the regulation present in the sale of those products and services.

Are you asking for highly regulated products and services that aren't terrible?

If so, automobile manufacturing is highly regulated, as is banking. Plenty of competition exists. In both, I have a very granular range of choices at different price points, and have no trouble finding ones I am happy with. Airlines generally have two tiers of service, and business/first does nothing for large parts of what makes the experience terrible.

Or are you asking about less regulated industries, like hotels or restaurants?

Or maybe things that are completely unregulated?

Re: Leaked email from United Airlines CEO blames passenger for violent removal

#218

Post by IIIIIIIIIIII »

benji-york wrote: post #214
Noseshine wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A person was legally required to do something he didn't want to do That is your claim but it does not appear to be true. Read this comment on reddit from a lawyer (unless someone shows that to be wrong I'll assume it to be true): https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/64nluh/united_ceo_dou... (EDIT: The comment is actually just a quote of another comment here: https://thepointsguy.com/2017/04/your-rights-on-involun…

Let's set aside the legality issue for the moment and assume that United was not legally allowed to have the man removed from the flight. What then is the appropriate response of the passenger? Is non-cooperation (i.e., require people to physically remove you from your seat) the right thing to do? Is physically resisting (hitting, pushing, grappling with, etc.) those sent to remove you permissible?

You reverse the questions. Why? The man didn't do anything, he just sat there. Those who did do something where those who injured him.

Who was bleeding, the police, a United airlines person - or the passenger?

But it is interesting that you still try to reframe the problem, anything to twist the issue. Do you work for United? I'm not accusing you, just asking, there certainly are more than enough people who are even more obedient to authority than at any time in the Kaiserreich (19th century Germany) whose only way to read any such story is "how can I possibly read this situation so that the big guys are right". Your idea of law and order seems to be top => down, and one-way only, the top guys command, the bottom guys obey - immediately, no questions (again: the passenger did not do anything, reacting to aggression is not aggression!).

Re: Leaked email from United Airlines CEO blames passenger for violent removal

#219

Post by p49k »

true_religion wrote: post #126
BlackFly wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a fantastic link. Summary of the points: CFR 250.2a covers overbooking but only applies before boarding. Since the United employees had no confirmed reserved seats on the aircraft, they cannot be given priority over a customer with a confirmed reserved seat. The passenger was already boarded, so they cannot rely on oversales rules to refuse service. Instead they need to rely on their Contract of Carriage whic…

Yep, and in order to exercise his legal rights in this entirely civil case, he ought to have left the plane called his lawyer then gone before a judge. This whole act of struggling with the police is never going to get a good outcome. It will only escalate things from a civil matter to a criminal one.

Absolutely not. In order for United to exercise THEIR civil rights in this entirely civil case and sue for lost revenue related to not being able to get their crew to Louisville, they should have let him fly after confirming his refusal to leave and then later pleaded their case before a judge. If United indeed had the right to reject him, they would have been compensated by the doctor.

It was United, not the passenger, who escalated to violence in a purely civil matter. He did not force himself onto the plane, he simply declined to give up the seat he had already been given.

Re: Leaked email from United Airlines CEO blames passenger for violent removal

#220

Post by pascalxus »

I'm sure they could have avoided this whole situation by offering the first 4 persons of the airplane, a 1000$ CASH. Instead, their policy is to risk incidents like this, for one simple reason: because they can.

This is what happens when you get monopolies. Come on people, I thought we learned from the ISP monopolies already. Whenever you have limited or No choice: like monopolies, no good can come from it. I'm not surprised by this at all. And, I wouldn't be surprised if we see large increases in air fares above inflation, in coming years, as airlines consolidate their monopolistic powers. It won't be too long untill they're competing with Comcast and At&t for worst customer service.

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