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Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

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Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#211

Post by alistproducer2 »

thraway2016 wrote: post #123
alistproducer2 wrote: post #44

Don't start companies in places where the prevailing rates are in the 6 figures unless you have the cash to afford it. The idea that software engineering is a "talent" strikes me as wrong. Knowledge of algorithms and data structure is attainable by anyone willing to put in the time to read a book. Hire people, incentivise them to learn what's important to the success of your company. Pay them to practice their new sk…

> Knowledge of algorithms and data structure is attainable by anyone willing to put in the time to read a book Cognitive limits do exist. Hardwired g-factor correlates like working memory will ultimately limit any one individual's capacity for understanding the above. I do agree with your larger point, though. SF/NYC/Boston are not the only places one can find high-IQ individuals motivated to learn and build things.

I'm not so sure one needs to be high-IQ to be proficient. Outside of pure CS research, there's nothing in practical software engineering that requires much more than average to slightly above average intelligence to comprehend. the main thing you need is a person that is genuinely curious.

Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#212

Post by vkjv »

thesmallestcat wrote: post #140
znq wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very true. For both of our companies [1][2] we pay a fair salary plus a quarterly bonus on top of that based on what we can give (based on the company's quarterly profit results). We also offer remote retreats (so far Cape Town, Thailand, Martinique, Spain and Skiing in the Alps) and the biggest contributor to everyone's satisfaction is that we let everyone work from where ever they want and as much as they want as l…

The problem is there's no way to know how true the promises are. What do "flex hours" mean to them? Is it conditional, if so, on what? How far does their trust really go? Compensation doesn't have this problem. You can't offer me $160k and then pay me $120k six months down the road. I mean, you can, but not with a straight face. The soft benefits you described are one CTO/manager/investor change, or engineer bus acci…

I'm not sure how many companies would agree to it, but you could potentially work those items into your contract so that they are on the same level as other benefits (e.g., salary, health care).

Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#213

Post by lkrubner »

krschultz wrote: post #7

If you are a startup and are trying to compete head to head with Google / FB / Amazon / Apple / Microsoft for the same people, you are going to have a really hard time recruiting. But there are plenty of great engineers that don't want to work at those companies for various reasons. There are plenty of great engineers that want to work remotely and don't have that option at the large companies. There are also plenty…

There are also a lot of startups that simply need to focus on some of the basics of management, such as "be reasonable" or at least "don't be completely psycho".

One example that was discussed on Hacker News previously:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10662128

Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#214

Post by nradov »

throwaway2016a wrote: post #21

I work at a startup that isn't profitable yet so our salaries are very low... - Our typical junior makes $50 - 60k - A typical mid makes $65 - 75k - Seniors (including CTO) make $90 - 110k In greater Boston. It is VERY difficult to hire at those rates. We had someone come in interviewing for a senior that I would place as a mid (generously...) and he accepted another offer for $150k. At our scale he would be making $…

Your first sentence is a non sequitur. Profitability and salaries aren't linked.

Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#215

Post by beambot »

thesmallestcat wrote: post #146
beambot wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you're saying startups are riskier...? Don't think anyone here will disagree with that. ;)

The risk I described is separate from startups. A company of any size/age/growth rate can substitute soft benefits for compensation. To be clear, I was not talking about the job stability risk of working at a startup, or startups at all.

Fair enough.

Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#216

Post by dmoy »

matt_wulfeck wrote: post #114
toomuchtodo wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would trade at least $15k/year for a four day work week.

I thought about this myself as well. To me a 20% reduction in work days is well worth a 20% reduction in pay. This is an easy perk that is offered at no large companies. Sadly it's not widespread. And I fear most companies wouldn't be well prepared to actually execute on it.

I have coworkers (at Google) with that arrangement. I have family members at top5 bank with that arrangement.

It won't be publicly broadcast, but if you ask around it is an option.

Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#217

Post by asah »

mixmastamyk wrote: post #135

As long as startups refuse to hire unless they find a young white/asian guy who's good on the spot/whiteboard with trivia questions you'll have a hard time hiring---google or not. I've twenty years experience and couldn't get hired last year, so gave up and joined a freelancer site. Getting lots of work now, no questions asked, and guess what? Five star reviews, and work from home. I'm not interested in games and pre…

nice!!!

Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#218

Post by humanrebar »

wpietri wrote: post #186
jasode wrote: post #78

The way the article frames the $350k competitive salary as a "problem" for startups is backwards. If you're a businessman, you build a business that works with the prevailing pricing that's out there. That includes prices for everything such as raw materials, office rent, AWS/GCP cloud costs, government taxes & fees, and yes, high programmer salaries. Complaining that your startup is "hurt" because AWS egress transfe…

That's a reasonable tactical perspective. For the individual entrepreneur, it's valid. That doesn't mean that this article isn't a valid complaint from other perspectives. E.g., It's totally reasonable that CEOs and investors will grumble about this. I'm sure Bezos, Page, and Brin were grumbling at the costs back in the day. But I think the interesting perspective here is at the ecosystem level. If startups have to s…

> If startups have to spend a lot more, it changes what's possible. We'll have fewer startups.

Paying higher salaries and spending more on development are related but distinct things.

You might be able to get more done by having fewer, higher paid employees. Or maybe you need have more of a mix of different ability levels to keep costs down.

> If startups have to spend a lot more, it changes what's possible.

Sometimes the business plan is just not workable. Why blame employees for expecting higher pay and not customers for not being willing to spend more? Or other cost centers for not being cheaper?

> There are a lot of factors here, but I strongly believe that much higher living and operating costs is one of them.

Yeah, that for instance.

Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#219

Post by logfromblammo »

alpha_squared wrote: post #201
mring33621 wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. I'm an older, successful dev in Chicago. I recently corresponded w/ a local startup CEO on linkedin. My skillset seemed to be a good fit for the role, but their stated top salary would be a 20K pay cut for me. So I ran a quick estimate, based on expected exit and expected dilution figures that I found on the internet (I know, grain of salt...), added a risk premium for myself, and found that I would want about 7…

> ...found that I would want about 7% equity, in order to be interested. They said no, of course. You wanted 7% equity to make up for 20k? That seems a little excessive...

How would you know what excessive might be without valuing the company?

Seems reasonable for a company with estimated current valuation of around $300k.

Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#220

Post by bdcravens »

znq wrote: post #17
krschultz wrote: post #7

If you are a startup and are trying to compete head to head with Google / FB / Amazon / Apple / Microsoft for the same people, you are going to have a really hard time recruiting. But there are plenty of great engineers that don't want to work at those companies for various reasons. There are plenty of great engineers that want to work remotely and don't have that option at the large companies. There are also plenty…

Very true. For both of our companies [1][2] we pay a fair salary plus a quarterly bonus on top of that based on what we can give (based on the company's quarterly profit results). We also offer remote retreats (so far Cape Town, Thailand, Martinique, Spain and Skiing in the Alps) and the biggest contributor to everyone's satisfaction is that we let everyone work from where ever they want and as much as they want as l…

Am I the only one that when I hear about retreats wonders how much it costs per employee, and given the same situation would rather have that money in my pocket?
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