Wages rise on California farms, Americans still don’t want the job • Hacker News Board

Re: Wages rise on California farms, Americans still don’t want the job

#211

Post by chiefalchemist » Sat, Mar 18, 2017, 4:18 AM UTC

temp-dude-87844 wrote: post #159

hkmurakami wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any insight into what does In n' Out does differently? They seem to continue to attract that demographic.

Elsewhere in the States, Panera, Starbucks, Chick fil-A, Tropical Smoothie, and likely some others tend to have staff that fits the same visual archetype. Some of it is likely due to "organic" stratification and segregation of society, which is a less-nice way of saying people keep to their own circles. Some of it may be deliberate discrimination due to factors such as attractiveness and access to resources, often ob…

What does Starbucks pay? Or are their employees just naturally unhappy, if not grumpy?

Re: Wages rise on California farms, Americans still don’t want the job

#212

Post by edblarney » Sat, Mar 18, 2017, 6:31 AM UTC

virtuabhi wrote: post #204

edblarney wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It wasn't as cool to work at fast food, and the area was becoming more affluent." If you walk into a 7-11 in Scandinavia (yes, they have some there) - esp. in a small town - you'll sometimes see a drop-dead '10' Swedish model working behind the counter. Why? Because 'it's normal' for people to do such jobs - as you say - 'when you were young' it was normal. When those jobs are done by non-citizens, especially of a d…

I am appalled by the casual sexism and racism of the parent comment. "esp. in a small town - you'll sometimes see a drop-dead '10' Swedish model working behind the counter" --> Is it okay to refer to a person by a sexist score? Does the HN community condones this and at the same time rally against sexual harassment at statups? How is this comment not dead yet?

Yes - sometimes people refer to people who are attractive as 'drop dead hot' or 'bombshells' or '10's.

These are colloquial terms for how we sometimes refer to attractiveness.

Your insinuation that this is 'sexist' is completely wrong.

And even if I did refer to gender, it would be fine.

Crude, maybe, but sexist. No.

"Does the HN community condones this and at the same time rally against sexual harassment at statups?"

Referring to some unidentified people as 'drop dead hot' is not remotely harassing, and your indication that this should somehow be screened is wrong, and problematic. I'll suggest that your position might be the impetus for why so many people are weary, or skeptical of some movements concerning 'sexism in the valley'.

And FYI in no way did I imply that somehow immigrants cannot be 'hot'. I'm indicating that in some places 'menial jobs' are done by otherwise 'high social status' individuals because of the social dynamic. In most places, you don't find attractive people working at McDonalds - because they will work in retail, in funner, better environments consistent with their sense of identity. Or bartending/waitressing where their attractiveness yields significantly better outcomes in tipping - and frankly - even in ordering (attractive staff make people spend more).

Though migrants can definitely be 'hot' - individuals who are undocumented are generally 'very low social status' and are almost excluded from most of the social context.

It's not a moral statement - being 'low social status' does not imply lower human worth - it's an observation of a social system.

All animals are social, and develop social hierarchy - it's a fundamental dynamic of nature.

Re: Wages rise on California farms, Americans still don’t want the job

#213

Post by amorphid » Sat, Mar 18, 2017, 7:03 AM UTC

rogerbinns wrote: post #93

hkmurakami wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any insight into what does In n' Out does differently? They seem to continue to attract that demographic.

They don't have franchises like the other chains. That is also why their rollout seems slow. This means the boss is the company, not a franchisee who will have their own way of doing things. They then make a reasonable effort of benefits for their employees: http://www.in-n-out.com/employment/restaurant.aspx

There rollouts are also slower for a couple reasons:

- every In-N-Out must be within 500 miles of a beef distribution center [1]

- In-N-Out tries to buy it's land [2]

My impression is that they grow the business from cash flow, not debt, and they move slowly so they can keep up quality. They are a privately held company, so hard to verify some information.

[1] http://www.ocregister.com/articles/accelerates-291670-expans...

[2] http://www.innoutrealestate.com/

Re: Wages rise on California farms, Americans still don’t want the job

#214

Post by candiodari » Sat, Mar 18, 2017, 8:38 AM UTC

CalChris wrote: post #49

greedo wrote: post #28

When I was younger, I worked at a McDonalds in SoCal. Almost all the employees were white teenagers. The managers were white as well. We didn't make much, just a bit above minimum wage, but we were all mostly high-school students or college students working in the summer to pay tuition. This went on until around 1984 or so, when it became much harder to hire this demographic. It wasn't as cool to work at fast food, a…

Minimum wage in that era had much stronger purchasing power. 1980 saw its decline. https://oregonstate.edu/instruct/anth484/minwage.html

Wages saw a decline since the 1980s. Minimum wage just as well as almost any other. Hell, by a reasonable PCE measure, even the president is making substantially less.

The government has of course solved this problem.

One, the actual amounts didn't go down, they simply didn't keep pace with inflation. And as actual measures (ie. "Big Mac index" type indices) kept going down, they were systematically removed from tracking by the FED. So the government can claim that they didn't in fact go down by a factor of 3.

In reality nobody has lost any wages you see, and the fact that a fast food worker's (esp. immigrant ones) "apartment" (room is a more apt description generally) today is tiny, looks barren and has absolutely nothing in it worth anything, or the issue that their cars are invariably beaters. Well that was the case for lowest-level jobs in the 1980s as well, wasn't it ?

Wait ... no it wasn't. First of all, they owned houses and cars.

But you see, according to the fed's measures of inflation everything is about the same. And of course it is. You see, people today only use about a third of the housing as people of the 1980s. That must be because people now ... euhm ... are about 1/3rd the size of back then ? They also only use 1/3rd transport (fuel, public transport, ...) ... now there's some small justification for that, as a gallon of gasoline goes a lot further now, but still.

Re: Wages rise on California farms, Americans still don’t want the job

#215

Post by crdoconnor » Sat, Mar 18, 2017, 12:47 PM UTC

Eridrus wrote: post #202

lacampbell wrote: post #161

This persistent myth that first world western countries need mass migration because there are jobs "$NATIONALY won't do" really needs to die. Japan is a high income first world nation, very low immigration, and yet somehow they are able to find people to drive taxis, serve food and sweep streets. It's nothing more than an emotion based persuasion technique to get the first world working class to accept lower wages. D…

Food can be shipped though, so there's a cap on how high wages can rise unless you start adding import taxes.

...which is what Japan does.

Re: Wages rise on California farms, Americans still don’t want the job

#216

Post by cylinder » Sat, Mar 18, 2017, 3:23 PM UTC

greedo wrote: post #28

When I was younger, I worked at a McDonalds in SoCal. Almost all the employees were white teenagers. The managers were white as well. We didn't make much, just a bit above minimum wage, but we were all mostly high-school students or college students working in the summer to pay tuition. This went on until around 1984 or so, when it became much harder to hire this demographic. It wasn't as cool to work at fast food, a…

In Australia McDonalds are still generally staffed by young teens, not immigrants, and often white. This is because there are lower minimum wages for minors (staggered by age).

I think this is a matter of costs (wages) and not much else.

Re: Wages rise on California farms, Americans still don’t want the job

#217

Post by cylinder » Sat, Mar 18, 2017, 3:25 PM UTC

diogenescynic wrote: post #87

greedo wrote: post #28

When I was younger, I worked at a McDonalds in SoCal. Almost all the employees were white teenagers. The managers were white as well. We didn't make much, just a bit above minimum wage, but we were all mostly high-school students or college students working in the summer to pay tuition. This went on until around 1984 or so, when it became much harder to hire this demographic. It wasn't as cool to work at fast food, a…

There are plenty of white teenagers who work at every In-N-Out I've ever been to--because they pay better. Otherwise those kids, in nicer areas like you point to, have better alternatives for minimum wage like retail. The reason the jobs you describe are being replaced by immigrants is because the wages have been stagnant or not kept up with inflation. Unskilled immigrants take labor jobs that Americans aren't really…

In n Out pays $11-$12/he with good benefits - much more than McD. McDonalds are also franchises so the individual owners are much more concerned with weekly cash flow than corporate In N Out who can decide to invest in higher wages for lower turnover and better staff which are longer term investments.

Re: Wages rise on California farms, Americans still don’t want the job

#218

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Mar 18, 2017, 3:27 PM UTC

virtuabhi wrote: post #204

edblarney wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It wasn't as cool to work at fast food, and the area was becoming more affluent." If you walk into a 7-11 in Scandinavia (yes, they have some there) - esp. in a small town - you'll sometimes see a drop-dead '10' Swedish model working behind the counter. Why? Because 'it's normal' for people to do such jobs - as you say - 'when you were young' it was normal. When those jobs are done by non-citizens, especially of a d…

I am appalled by the casual sexism and racism of the parent comment. "esp. in a small town - you'll sometimes see a drop-dead '10' Swedish model working behind the counter" --> Is it okay to refer to a person by a sexist score? Does the HN community condones this and at the same time rally against sexual harassment at statups? How is this comment not dead yet?

[deleted]

Re: Wages rise on California farms, Americans still don’t want the job

#219

Post by jschwartzi » Sat, Mar 18, 2017, 4:16 PM UTC

Animats wrote: post #80

Walking around handing out business cards in a bad neighborhood is not effective recruiting. Nor is the wine industry that important. It's good to see wages rising, though. Machine picking is taking over. Every crop which can be machine harvested already is. All the staple crops were mechanized decades ago. Fruits and vegetables are mostly mechanized. Orange picking has been mechanized.[1] (The mechanism is brutal, b…

Is this why all the potatoes that I buy now have round, half-moon shaped cuts in them?

Re: Wages rise on California farms, Americans still don’t want the job

#220

Post by Animats » Sat, Mar 18, 2017, 9:22 PM UTC

jschwartzi wrote: post #219

Animats wrote: post #80

Walking around handing out business cards in a bad neighborhood is not effective recruiting. Nor is the wine industry that important. It's good to see wages rising, though. Machine picking is taking over. Every crop which can be machine harvested already is. All the staple crops were mechanized decades ago. Fruits and vegetables are mostly mechanized. Orange picking has been mechanized.[1] (The mechanism is brutal, b…

Is this why all the potatoes that I buy now have round, half-moon shaped cuts in them?

That's probably from the washing and root removal.[1] Those machines have drums, rollers, or vibrating screens which remove unwanted bits of root.

Potato harvesters are simple. They drive a horizontal blade through the ground at root level, and bring up everything above the blade onto a conveyor with slots. The dirt falls through the slots back onto the ground, and the potatoes are carried upward. Here's an operation that's digging 450 acres a day. Look how fast the trucks fill up with potatoes. No amount of hand labor could compete with that.[2]

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7gydrEpzAs [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KL7OrHkDaY