Hiring without whiteboards • Hacker News Board

Re: Hiring without whiteboards

#211

Post by YCode » Wed, Mar 15, 2017, 3:08 PM UTC

clarry wrote: post #131

et-al wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That said, I'm always surprised how many candidates cannot even point to one problem they worked on they found interesting or one solution that they're proud of. It could be that this technique favors people good at telling stories. Personally, I'm a horrible storyteller. If you were to ask me what I did over the weekend, I'll offer some facts like "oh, went swimming in a river and Bob lost his hat, but we found it…

> > That said, I'm always surprised how many candidates cannot even point to one problem they worked on they found interesting or one solution that they're proud of. > It could be that this technique favors people good at telling stories. Or people who think they're impressive. I know I would've been able to point out many problems and solutions I found interesting and were impressed with when I was 15. Today, not so…

I'm not a "look at me!" kind of person, but here's what has really helped me with these kinds of interviews.

Keep a daily journal of what you work on. Nothing fancy, just stop by once a day religiously and add a few notes on what you did, what meetings you attended, who you spoke with, etc...

Save your evaluations and especially any award packages you or your team might get submitted for. At least where I work both are your supervisor's attempt to make you look as good as possible.

Then, when you're job hunting review your notes and bullets and collect the ones that sound the best and perhaps ones that have numbers assigned to them (size, savings, productivity, etc..)

Preferably you'd memorize these few stories about yourself, but if you must you could also bring a notebook with prompts to remind you.

Re: Hiring without whiteboards

#212

Post by ryandrake » Wed, Mar 15, 2017, 3:08 PM UTC

et-al wrote: post #60

jonasvp wrote: post #25

I'm responsible for hiring developers at our company based in Berlin, Germany, and found it best to have a guided interview about the candidate's work experience and interesting problems that she/he solved. I never understood the whiteboard hazing/CS trivia that are so widely discussed on HN since it seems extremely disconnected from the actual work that's being done. That said, I'm always surprised how many candidat…

> That said, I'm always surprised how many candidates cannot even point to one problem they worked on they found interesting or one solution that they're proud of. It could be that this technique favors people good at telling stories. Personally, I'm a horrible storyteller. If you were to ask me what I did over the weekend, I'll offer some facts like "oh, went swimming in a river and Bob lost his hat, but we found it…

> If I didn't know that you'd be asking for solutions I'm proud of, I might draw a blank at that moment. Granted it's an interview setting and these are the questions one needs to prepare for.

The key word there is "prepare". These are standard interview questions that you just have to have a prepared, rehearsed answer for that you can rattle off without thinking. There are tons of these types of "behavioral" questions. Tell me about a project that you worked on that failed. Tell me about a time you had to deal with team conflict. Talk about a struggling project that you had to help turn around. You can get a book full of them. Be ready with canned answers for as many as you can and practice them in front of a mirror.

Re: Hiring without whiteboards

#213

Post by lj3 » Wed, Mar 15, 2017, 3:12 PM UTC

ciaranm wrote: post #96

lj3 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not disrespectful for a company to ask you to write a little code for them. They're just as invested on the time front as you are since they have to read and analyze what you send them. Now, if you were to tell me that nobody ever looked at the test after you sent it in, then it becomes disrespectful. I had several companies do that to me a few months ago. Not that it matters much. I don't think code tests will…

If it's automated, or direct from a recruiter - chances are the company hasn't even read my CV. Or looked at any of the previous work I've included. Of course it's disrespectful.

deleted

Re: Hiring without whiteboards

#214

Post by toast0 » Wed, Mar 15, 2017, 3:13 PM UTC

logfromblammo wrote: post #197

badminton1 wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, if you did relatively fine they might still contact you in the future for other positions.

I can't tell if you're being facetious or if you're really that naive. No company that I have worked for has ever said, "You know what? Let's look at the resumes of previous applicants, call them up, and see if they are still looking for new jobs." Every vacant position is always filled by direct, active applicants. Even backchannel applicants have to send a fresh copy of their resume to someone, so that it can be ad…

I'll offer a counter amnecdote: I submitted a friend's resume, he was interviewed and my boss liked him, but his boss didn't (I don't know about other feedback). Some time later, we had a new opening with some urgency and my boss asked me to see if he'd like to interview again; he was hired after that round (boss's boss did not interview him)

Re: Hiring without whiteboards

#215

Post by ninjakeyboard » Wed, Mar 15, 2017, 3:14 PM UTC

lhnz wrote: post #185

ninjakeyboard wrote: post #110

What's with all the whiteboard backlash? I ask simple questions and expect people to be able to write code unaided to express their idea. Not "implement a linked list" or "write quicksort" but basic "You have two arrays - find if a number exists in both arrays" sort of thing, primarily to reason about runtime complexity, and to make sure they can actually write code. If you tell a candidate to prepare, they should be…

Part of this is that a lot of interview practices (including whiteboarding) exclude people that suffer from social anxiety. Just because somebody freezes up when being watched and critiqued by an Evaluator, doesn't mean that they are 'copy-and-paste programmers'. There are probably a lot of extremely good engineers who find this style of interview difficult. People that call 'whiteboarding' a skill don't really get i…

"People that call 'whiteboarding' a skill don't really get it. If you have irrational fear over people's judgements and this manifests when you're being interviewed, you can't merely expose yourself to this fear often to lessen it. It is very difficult to change how your mind and body react to uncomfortable situations. "

I disagree on a few levels. I can't back anything with data but I'll point to where you can find many people who will offer their anecdotal stories of desensitizing themselves.

Being able to talk and interact with people is a part of the role. Software is not written in isolation - it is done best with a lot of collaboration and critical review of work. Being able to communicate and give and receive critical feedback are cornerstone traits. Good code is not written in isolation and giving and receiving critical feedback is not comfortable.

If I interview for those traits and qualities, I hope that I'm not discriminating against social anxiety but I spent 5 years in toastmaster's throwing myself in uncomfortable situations until I could come out of it.

I feel like interviewing is becoming this PC thing where we try to form to evaluate people in the way that is comfortable for them, where we live in a world where people need to break out of their comfort zone and learn to shape themselves into their environments. Go to Toastmasters, speak in front of people, keep going and you'll improve your skills - yes the soft ones too. You'll become comfortable - you will - ask anyone who stands and speaks confidently in front of you in those rooms if they were always that calm and composed while speaking in front of people. They were not and they learned to speak 'off the cuff' on topics they were not prepared for or subjects they didn't expect in there.

Maybe I'm alone in my thoughts but I'm looking for people who will grow. I want someone who will stand strong if I give them a critical code review - I want someone who will hang their ego at the door and be able to talk about what we're working on objectively.

If I'm still coming off too hard on this, what if I say that it's a consulting company that I'm hiring for and that the staff will be in front of customers who will interview and drill them every day?

Ultimately, we can grow and change. I know we can because I have grown and changed. I want my staff to have a growth mentality, not a fixed view of themselves.

Re: Hiring without whiteboards

#216

Post by bogomipz » Wed, Mar 15, 2017, 3:15 PM UTC

lj3 wrote: post #33

gedrap wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that this is a proper justification for sending coding projects to everyone who submitted a CV. This is a big imbalance in time investment from both sides and quite disrespectful from the applications point of view.

It's not disrespectful for a company to ask you to write a little code for them. They're just as invested on the time front as you are since they have to read and analyze what you send them. Now, if you were to tell me that nobody ever looked at the test after you sent it in, then it becomes disrespectful. I had several companies do that to me a few months ago. Not that it matters much. I don't think code tests will…

>"It's not disrespectful for a company to ask you to write a little code for them. "

Except in practice it seems that its not a "little code" its a 4 hour project that is usually closer to a 6 or 8 hour project in reality.

Re: Hiring without whiteboards

#217

Post by thomasahle » Wed, Mar 15, 2017, 3:17 PM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #212

et-al wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That said, I'm always surprised how many candidates cannot even point to one problem they worked on they found interesting or one solution that they're proud of. It could be that this technique favors people good at telling stories. Personally, I'm a horrible storyteller. If you were to ask me what I did over the weekend, I'll offer some facts like "oh, went swimming in a river and Bob lost his hat, but we found it…

> If I didn't know that you'd be asking for solutions I'm proud of, I might draw a blank at that moment. Granted it's an interview setting and these are the questions one needs to prepare for. The key word there is "prepare". These are standard interview questions that you just have to have a prepared, rehearsed answer for that you can rattle off without thinking. There are tons of these types of "behavioral" questio…

> Be ready with canned answers for as many as you can and practice them in front of a mirror.

Practicing algorithms for a whiteboard interview sounds a lot more fun.

Re: Hiring without whiteboards

#218

Post by PJDK » Wed, Mar 15, 2017, 3:18 PM UTC

YCode wrote: post #211

clarry wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> > That said, I'm always surprised how many candidates cannot even point to one problem they worked on they found interesting or one solution that they're proud of. > It could be that this technique favors people good at telling stories. Or people who think they're impressive. I know I would've been able to point out many problems and solutions I found interesting and were impressed with when I was 15. Today, not so…

I'm not a "look at me!" kind of person, but here's what has really helped me with these kinds of interviews. Keep a daily journal of what you work on. Nothing fancy, just stop by once a day religiously and add a few notes on what you did, what meetings you attended, who you spoke with, etc... Save your evaluations and especially any award packages you or your team might get submitted for. At least where I work both a…

If someone brought along an notebook full of problems they'd experienced and how they'd solved them to an interview I was conducting I would be very impressed!

Re: Hiring without whiteboards

#219

Post by feedjoelpie » Wed, Mar 15, 2017, 3:19 PM UTC

hasenj wrote: post #208

Using the presence of whiteboard questions as a metric for interview quality seems rather pointless to me. Whiteboards questions can be very good or can be very bad or anywhere in between. Just like any interview question in general. I for one prefer whiteboard questions to generic open ended personal questions. Good whiteboard questions can quickly assess whether someone knows the basics of programming or not. Open…

Early in my programming career, I got a whiteboard question where, after being asked my hobbies, I was asked to diagram an electric guitar on the whiteboard. I don't know that it was a particularly good question. But all this sabre-rattling against the whiteboard in general just seems like a silly distillation of a legitimate critique down to its stupidest form.

Even when it comes to CS algorithms questions. Yeah, asking someone to whiteboard quicksort might be bad, might optimize for the wrong things for the actual job.

But should it be a red flag that someone expected me to be able to do a more basic operation, that I've more or less purported to do professionally and efficiently, on a whiteboard on the spot?

[Edit: At my company we don't really do whiteboarding. We pre-screen with a time-limited open-book, open-internet test in advance. This helps account for candidates knowing how to quickly read/research/apply openly available information.]

Re: Hiring without whiteboards

#220

Post by jotato » Wed, Mar 15, 2017, 3:19 PM UTC

quotemstr wrote: post #176

scottishfiction wrote: post #174

Fog Creek is listed. I once interviewed there and was asked to calculate the volume of a cylinder. Have they changed there approach?

Calculating the volume of a cylinder is trivial.

What does that have to do with solving problems? If you can't do it off the top of your head, a quick search will give you the formula and then you plug it in. Questions like this make me not accept a job offer for a place.