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Sexism at Uber from Female Management

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Re: Sexism at Uber from Female Management

#211

Post by cholantesh »

Marconium wrote: post #204
raarts wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Self control can be practiced. Do not blame her for waring a tank top. It's better to try to grow as a person and not remove everything that challenges your personality from your surroundings. Also she has freedom too. A tank top is not out of the ordinary.

If I stop wash and I will smell bad. Should I ask my colleagues to develop self-control and just ignore my smell? If something is distracting for people around you, it is very selfish to ask them to change. By distracting things I mean things that are rooted in our biology. Not things that are opinion based.

Given that there are more physiological indicator that a person doesn't wash themselves, let alone there is a legitimate impact on health and safety when someone refuses to do so, it should be clear that this is not even close to being an apples to apples comparison.

Re: Sexism at Uber from Female Management

#212

Post by catshirt »

caminante wrote: post #175
neutronicus wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Tina" is preying on the author's nascent anxieties about how her male co-workers perceive her body, clothing choices, etc. It's a form of harassment that's pretty obviously tailored to the author's gender (how many men report anxieties about being taken less seriously because they show too much skin?). The modern use of the word "sexism" includes gender-tailored harassment. It's a broader term nowadays than just "ho…

I also don't think sexism is limited to gender1 That said, I think you're argument's too broad. If you want to call it harrassment, call it harrassment, but I don't get sexism. > (how many men report anxieties about being taken less seriously because they show too much skin?). How many guys wear tank tops at work? Some do. In order for your criteria to be consistent, you're saying that if a man were to wear a tank to…

> In order for your criteria to be consistent, you're saying that if a man were to wear a tank top at Uber and his boss told him not to wear a tank top, that it'd be sexist?

no... the exact opposite. it's sexist because, presumably, the manager would not try to reprimand and/or embarrass a male for a tank top.

to neutronicus' broader point though, i can't imagine anyone ever making these remarks to a male at all. because there are double standards when it comes to dress and skin. not trying to get political... like, there's no social expectation for men to hide their breasts at the beach.

"gender-tailored" is apt. it wouldn't even cross someones mind to say this stuff to a guy.

Re: Sexism at Uber from Female Management

#213

Post by catshirt »

caminante wrote: post #177
MBCook wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was a comment based on her appearance (and assumedly how 'sexy' she was dressing). That's the reason. If a Male manager told her she probably isn't doing well because of how she dresses (and she dresses reasonably) that would be sexism, so it's the same thing if it's another women doing it. On the scale of sexism this isn't as bad as the other things reported about Uber (she wasn't propositioned for example), but…

Thanks for sharing your perspective. Your comment has broadened my perception of sexism beyond "Can this person win in court?" > If a Male manager told her she probably isn't doing well because of how she dresses (and she dresses reasonably) that would be sexism, so it's the same thing if it's another women doing it. Yet, this isn't what happened! ;-) According to the author's own words. Manager in a 1:1 a) asked if…

> Maybe her manager knows something or heard another manager make an off-hand comment about the dress code.

then they either have an unclear dress code which they enforce in an unprofessional and inconsistent manner, or two sexist managers.

> I would appreciate that advice so I can decide for myself whether to make a simple adjustment to my wardrobe.

dress in whatever makes you most comfortable (and abides by your company's dress code). if someone has something to say, they're kind of a dick. if someone has something to say they wouldn't say to the other gender, they're a sexist kind of a dick.

Re: Sexism at Uber from Female Management

#214

Post by sebastos »

watwut wrote: post #142
M4v3R wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my book that's just common sense, not sexism.

My body being distracting to you should be your problem not mine. Unless the guys are criticised for wearing young guy fashion (or looking attractive) too.

Okay, I'm a guy, I'll show up for work on Monday completely naked. If any of my coworkers so much as glances downward I'll let that sexist swine hear about it. Should be cool, right? It's THEIR problem, after all.

It's a workplace. You don't just do whatever you feel like doing. You closely manage your appearance, demeanor, and conversation to be as helpful and productive as possible. You don't tell rude jokes because they might not be in others' taste. You don't leave trash lying around because some of your coworkers might be bigger neat-freaks than you. You don't sing to yourself loudly at your desk, blast music from your workstation without headphones, or wear a shirt that says "Go Fuck Yourself" on it. These aren't rules that are being enforced on the general population. They're a code of conduct for a cohort of like-minded people who are voluntarily working under that contract of behavior to accomplish something. We're trying to get work done here. It's not about restricting you, it's about enhancing the productivity of the whole. A manager should try their best not to make somebody feel self-conscious about what they're wearing - it's distracting and unpleasant. But that employee shouldn't put their manager in a situation where they feel like they have to mention it. Any given person, garment and culture might be on one side of that line or the other. It's a two-way street. You sacrifice hundreds of freedoms every day you go to work. Dress code isn't magically excluded just because men are more prone to visual distraction than women.

Re: Sexism at Uber from Female Management

#215

Post by whatever_dude »

watwut wrote: post #123
whatever_dude wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately managers also tend to be a product of their environment. I've seen female managers/leads take extremely male-centric sexist positions on issues just because it's the way they've learned. In other words, they had become "one of the boys" and were expecting other women under them to do the same. I've come to assume it's especially true of Women on their 40s or so who have been in the tech industry for a w…

That does not excuse them just as it would not excuse males. It is important to hold women to the same standard even in this area. Moreover, some women are abusive even without males teaching them that. Out of curiosity, what did you meant by male centric position?

I meant a sexist position that benefits men. Like someone being told that "girl, I never had any respect from men in my career, so don't expect any either" (this was not said from a manager to me, it was part of a conversation a woman I know had with her boss).

Re: Sexism at Uber from Female Management

#216

Post by thewhitetulip »

stevienyx wrote: post #85
thewhitetulip wrote: post #25

While reading the account, it seems the Manager is from India perhaps? Edit: I am an Indian and it is a big deal in India to wear "revealing clothes", albeit I have no idea what a tank top is neither do I care Just FYI do you don't assume that I am a sexist and downvote me.

She is white, and no I don't assume you are a sexist, I assume you are a racist.

Assume all ypu want, it is NOT racist if I am an Indian, it is knowledge

You need to understand the difference

Re: Sexism at Uber from Female Management

#217

Post by thewhitetulip »

nanodano wrote: post #198
stevienyx wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She is white, and no I don't assume you are a sexist, I assume you are a racist.

Pointing out different values in different cultures is not racist...

Especially when the pointer is from thae culture he us pointing from.

Re: Sexism at Uber from Female Management

#218

Post by thewhitetulip »

vthallam wrote: post #105
thewhitetulip wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am an Indian and I hear these things daily, "you are wearing a top which discloses too much of your body" blah blah bullshit even in the 2017. Note: I don't understand HN's algorithm, apparently, I can downvote every comment except yours :D

I am an Indian too, the only place i think Indians hear that is at HOME. Never I have heard a Indian manager suggest people on how to dress in US.

Fair enough, you can't really predict these idiots, I mean come on, in 2017 we are telling women not to dress xyz.(unless it is a policy violation)

Re: Sexism at Uber from Female Management

#219

Post by voidlogic »

HeyLaughingBoy wrote: post #80
voidlogic wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's a source of constant amazement to me that people who will drill incessantly on red-black trees won't put in a modicum of effort to learn even a little bit about the inherently more complicated business of managing people. This isn't really an issue if you promote an engineer to mgmt when they have demonstrated that can manage people, rather than before and assume they can grow.

There's an alternative: put them in management and enforce mandatory management training. A former employer of mine had a rule that anyone at a "management level" (including engineers of a certain rank, even if they weren't actually managing anyone) had to complete a set of training courses within a certain period of being promoted. As an engineer entering management, I found the courses to be surprisingly useful in…

>There's an alternative: put them in management and enforce mandatory management training.

IMHO, I think your faulty assumption here is every good engineer can be trained into a good manager, and I think thats just not realistic...

Re: Sexism at Uber from Female Management

#220

Post by voidlogic »

kchoudhu wrote: post #87
voidlogic wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's a source of constant amazement to me that people who will drill incessantly on red-black trees won't put in a modicum of effort to learn even a little bit about the inherently more complicated business of managing people. This isn't really an issue if you promote an engineer to mgmt when they have demonstrated that can manage people, rather than before and assume they can grow.

You've got a chicken and egg problem here. The only way to train an engineer in this scheme is to have him manage people without having a clue, which necessarily implies breakage for the people working under him: definitionally a new person entering a specialized role has no idea how to carry out said role. The only thing that fixes this is extensive training before promotion -- but this is anathema in modern corpora…

>You've got a chicken and egg problem here.

Not really, say you are a manager and you want to groom a good engineer to become a manager as well. Step one is, can they manage their own projects, step 2 is can they manage a project with 1 other, step 3, several others. Once they can do that and display moral and technical leadership, they are ready to be a manager.

>The only thing that fixes this is extensive training before promotion

When it comes to leadership and people skills, training can increase chances of success, but does not guarantee it by far.

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