How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance • Hacker News Board

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#211

Post by mrtree » Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 4:32 PM UTC

sctb wrote: post #193

mrtree wrote: post #9

Immigration is the bane of the West. The less, the better.

We've banned this account for repeatedly violating the guidelines after being asked to stop.

What, it is insane to ban someone for speaking the truth. Isn't it true?

In fact, all of the comments of the thread are delusional. Saying that it is fair competition, that USA is not a nation... what the hell is wrong with people.

India has BILLIONS of people... even if only the 0.01% get it to the US they are bound to be the best. Local competition is impossible. Add to that the lower wages and you have locals out of the market. No wonder San Francisco and San Jose are how they are.

If it becomes a demographic competition then China and India are bound to get everything just by their sheer numbers.

Come on people...

Am I the only one who knows about the fake universities set up in San Jose to get "students" from India? Students that immediately start working for some company in the area and course no subjects at such University.

I don't know the ethnicity of the people commenting but I get some idea...

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#212

Post by chrisper » Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 4:32 PM UTC

gizmodo59 wrote: post #47

Things that a student coming to US faces from a developing or under-developed country: 1. Undergo TOEFL and GRE and apply to various universities 2. Save up enough money or even mortgage parents property to pay for tuition and even buy flight tickets 3. Adapt to a new culture, study hard while working part time 4. Finding a job (While its definitely easy for a CS graduate its not the same for other majors) but yet, c…

I am on an F1 visa in the US. When I first came to the US, I was excited to become part of this country and stay here and go the H1B route. As I learned more and more about this program over the years being here, I got more and more disappointed even to the point that I just gave up on H1B altogether and will be going back after I am done studying.

It really is just not worth my time investment and trouble, if I have a great alternative at home. Sure, this might be different from people who are from poor countries, but in my case I weighted the pros and cons between H1B and going back, and my home country "won."

>Undergo TOEFL and GRE and apply to various universities

Which is an expensive scam, imho.

>Adapt to a new culture, study hard while working part time Working part time might not be worth it for certain majors. In my case, I'd have to take 1 less class each semester to have more time to work. However, at the lousy wage it would end up being more expensive in the end than not working.

>Finding a job (While its definitely easy for a CS graduate its not the same for other majors) but yet, cannot be eligible to many companies that don't want to sponsor visa in long term, not eligible for small startups with no e-verify.

My experience has been that it is not easy to find a job, even as a CS graduate if you are not an American. Could be different if I went to Stanfrod or MIT, but with a regular school, I feel like being an American (i.e. not requiring sponsorship) is a huge advantage. I think that at this entry level companies rather choose Americans than people who would need sponsorship. Maybe this would be different if it wasn't a lottery

> Make sure you do all the paper work with OPT, be updated on travel requirements and other stuff

They even recently increased the fees of applying for OPT to $410.

So all in all, H1B is just too much uncertainty for a way too long time for me to be worth it.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#213

Post by Retric » Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 4:32 PM UTC

refurb wrote: post #146

Retric wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. If you are not willing to pay 100k then finding someone is not the problem. You just don't want to pay market rates. The point of H-1B is when salary is not the problem. PS: Remember, someone on an H-1B can leave your employment. Paying market rates is supposed to keep that from happening, thus the intent is to remove a shortage not lower pay.

So you're argument is that it's impossible for their to be an actual shortage of US workers unless the salary exceed $100K?

Yes, in the same way as there is no shortage of Bugatti Veyron for 100k. They simply cost more than that.

We live in a capitalist society where price is how you communicate demand. Now, if you are willing to pay X times median wage in the US and still can't find people then perhaps there is an argument. But, saying you can't find people when you are not willing to go that far suggests you are not willing to pay market wages.

PS: And yes I chose an undefined X, because there is no clear point when that happens. However, a reasonable lower bound for that X is probably ~3-5.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#214

Post by mark-r » Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 4:34 PM UTC

grzm wrote: post #38

sunilkumarc wrote: post #30

I don't have a subscription to WSJ. Could someone provide any other link with the same news?

Try the "web" link under the subscription title. That may get you around the paywall (though recently it's been inconsistent with the WSJ).

Even opening the article through Google (via the "web" link) in a Chrome Incognito window refuses to get through the paywall. I think I'm done with WSJ.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#215

Post by jacquesm » Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 4:35 PM UTC

refurb wrote: post #169

grey-area wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While they leave weaselly terms like this in visas to give the government discretion, the expectation was that if you were law-abiding you had nothing to fear. That expectation has been violated by recent actions, because green card holders with no black marks were turned away or prevented from even coming on the whim of the president. That devalues something like a green card dramatically because it could be rendere…

You have a very rosy picture of immigration pre-Trump. I can remember years ago co-workers stuck in their home country after returning for holiday because of some administrative typo on their visa application or being turned away at the border because their story sounded "fishy". Immigrants have always be at the whim of immigration officials when it comes to entering the US. Read some of the US immigrations forums. I…

Yes, but those changes in policy did not usually arrive in the form of executive orders whilst people are in transit between countries. It's way too unpredictable to be workable for any of the parties involved.

Timescale, drastic impact, unclear, possibly not legal what else is there to criticize?

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#216

Post by RcouF1uZ4gsC » Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 4:35 PM UTC

I think the best way would be to sort the applicants by compensation, and grant H1B starting at the highest compensation on the list until you run out.

For a fixed number of visas, this maximizes the utility of the applicants. This pairs the most productive workers with the most productive employers.

This would be beneficial to both American workers and foreign workers. The only one who would not benefit would be companies trying to get workers below market rates. I do not see why we should prioritize this groups interests over the workers interests.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#217

Post by ygaf » Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 4:35 PM UTC

msabalau wrote: post #151

devmunchies wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is no a notion of "nation" in USA, there is no such thing Yeah ok, buddy. Try that line when you don't wanna pay taxes.

The term "nation" typically means a collection of people with a common culture and ethnicity. The "Poles" are a nation, Poland is a state. That's why the the term nation-state exists, and contrasts with, say, empires composed of multiple nations. Canada, for example, traditionally described as a binational state, is now typically identified as a multicultural state, with some Québécois disliking the change in emphasi…

I'll admit to learning from your definition of nation just now. Sucks that I went well into adulthood never learning the proper meaning of a basic word. On the bright side, google has just given me the green light to continue using 'country' and state interchangeably.

Americans sloppily mishandle a lot of things. That's a common culture right off the bat ;) in addition to everything devmunchies said.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#218

Post by mywittyname » Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 4:36 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #195

mywittyname wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're being intentionally obtuse. Sure, the Native Americans would have gotten along fine with bows and horses. But we are discussing the economy. The growth the US economy throughout its history was driven heavily by immigration.

No, I'm pointing out the hypocrisy in your statements. The Native Americans had an economy too. > The growth the US economy throughout its history was driven heavily by immigration. Yes, because of the increase in demand for goods by those immigrants who brought their money/gold/silver if they had it but very little in terms of goods, and if they didn't have anything they immediately went to work in order to make end…

I'm not being hypocritical at all.

The Native Americans had an economy, yes. But the economy was much, much bigger after immigration. That's my entire point: immigration fueled economic growth in America.

Skilled labor (and investment capital) played a major part. From horticulturalist to provide plants for early agriculture, to carpenters and ship builders in Boston (and later steel and tools makers), to the physicists and engineers fleeing Europe during the World Wars, to the technology people today. All of these people contributed to the technological growth and dominance of the US.

If none of these immigrants were skilled, the US would look more like China or India than it does.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#219

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 4:37 PM UTC

refurb wrote: post #145

whatever_dude wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The H1B as it is has many problems, but a big salary floor is not the way to go in my opinion. Remember H1B is not just for tech workers. If you want to hire, say, an interpreter of a specific foreign language to work on a community in rural Alabama temporarily, a $100,000 minimum wage would be absurd. They instead need to go after the companies that learned to game the system. I'm not sure what the solution is here.…

Agreed. The world is bigger than just tech. Take a look at all the other backgrounds that often get H1Bs. A big one is scientists. If you made the floor $100K, say goodbye to non-PhD (and some PhD) scientists! And since the demand for PhDs isn't that high (you often have 2-3 non-PhDs reporting to a PhD), say goodbye to a lot of scientists using the H1B.

[deleted]

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#220

Post by eli_gottlieb » Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 4:37 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #206

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Kicking the door behind you closed once you've got yours or because you're afraid new immigrants will take your job is hypocrisy of a terrible kind for a nation that was founded on immigration. What about immigration from Kansas to California? We all know these tech companies prefer to hire from Stanford, MIT, and each-other. Why not just hire the proverbial kid from Brooklyn if we're so concerned about migration an…

> Why not just hire the proverbial kid from Brooklyn if we're so concerned about migration and diversity? The diversity is just a fig leaf, the migration angle is mostly about money and very rarely about skill. Also, not everybody is willing to relocate for a job and people from poor countries have usually much less to lose.

>The diversity is just a fig leaf, the migration angle is mostly about money and very rarely about skill.

My point exactly.