Should gifted students go to a separate school? • Hacker News Board

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#211

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Jan 25, 2017, 7:44 PM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #123

hawkice wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We go to school not just to be educated but to educate each other. If we're smart, we set an example to kids near us who don't feel that way. Hopefully, those who aren't labelled 'smart' gain from the presence of 'smart' students and 'smart' students gain from theirs. So, if we trap the geeks where they can be bullied and beaten, they'll understand what the real world is like better? I'll be real with you, I've nev…

Even if you were to create a special "school for smart people only" and magically teleport all geeks there, I wouldn't be sure it would eliminate the problem of geeks being bullied. Bullying seems to be an emergent thing that comes up naturally in the sort of environment a school is - as long as kids have a "hierarchy of popularity", there will be some people at the bottom of it, and those are your bullying targets.…

[deleted]

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#212

Post by tropo » Wed, Jan 25, 2017, 7:45 PM UTC

_m8fo wrote: post #84

I'm shocked, yet paradoxically unsurprised that so many of the comments here are saying "yes" to the question. In practice, separating gifted students does two things: 1. Accelerates income inequality (there's no way the gifted students on average will do poorer than the 'regular' students) 2. Remove equality of opportunity. What exactly is a gifted school going to do that would help gifted students and not regular s…

What will help gifted students and not regular students: faster curriculum, with less practice and review

So you put a regular student there. Pretty soon, they miss some key bit of understanding. Class doesn't pause and replay. Class moves on. Very quickly, the situation becomes hopeless. Why pay attention to calculus when you don't understand negative numbers or fractions? Why attempt Hamlet when you can't read words with more than one syllable?

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#213

Post by whorleater » Wed, Jan 25, 2017, 7:46 PM UTC

_m8fo wrote: post #204

whorleater wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>1. Accelerates income inequality (there's no way the gifted students on average will do poorer than the 'regular' students) While this is probably true, (although not necessarily proven), the solution to income inequality is not to cripple those ahead, it's to bolster those from behind. Regression to the mean doesn't make a better education system. >2. Remove equality of opportunity. That's not an argument against i…

I won't address your second point, as the problem we'd then be discussing is completely different (i.e. we're now discussing resource allocation). However, in regards to your first point: I said nothing about crippling those ahead. I'm curious what makes you say that honestly. Putting gifted students with "regular" students is not regression to the mean. Regression to the mean, would be putting gifted students in an…

> Putting gifted students with "regular" students is not regression to the mean.

How is it not? "Gifted" students are not given a chance to grow, since there's no pressure for them to excel in a school where they're already ahead. "Gifted" students aren't different from other children, they're responsive to the same social pressures all students face, and placing them with a "gifted" peer group allows them to thrive. Gifted students are among the most challenging for teachers to serve, as their needs lie outside the standard curriculum.

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#214

Post by stephancoral » Wed, Jan 25, 2017, 7:47 PM UTC

Hell no. The last thing we need is to segregate arbitrarily designated 'gifted' students from the rest of the school population. Not only will that breed resentment amongst peer groups, it also reduces the amount of important social interaction that takes place. Some of my best friends and the most inspiring people to me were so-called 'average' students who I wouldn't have met if I had gone to some smarty pants academy.

I was considered a gifted student and had the chance to go to some fancy private schools but I stayed at my public school and you know what, I absolutely loved it. Were the classes slow for me and too easy? Obviously, but I always brought a book (or three) and would read them throughout the day and at lunch. I slacked off on my homework and taught myself how to program. I helped my friends with their work - not cheating, but actively tutoring and explaining the principles. One of my friends who absolutely sucked at math is now graduating with a chem degree.

If a student is truly gifted, they will learn on their own and help others. As society becomes ever more unequal and stratified, we need as much social pollination as possible. Hell, the way public schools are going we should keep as many smart kids in there as we can. There were some student-run after school courses at my HS that were amazing.

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#215

Post by willholloway » Wed, Jan 25, 2017, 7:50 PM UTC

habosa wrote: post #85

A lot of comments here sound something like this: "I am smart and when I was in high school the classes bored me because they were taught to the lowest common denominator". This is not an argument for intellectual segregation of schools. While I could put forth a hundred arguments against this, here are a few off the top of my head: 1. When do we decide who is "gifted"? What happens to late bloomers? Are they forever…

Segregating gifted children in with the regular population will one day soon be seen as child abuse.

It has profound negative effects on the child, and leads to really terrible outcomes like drug abuse and absenteeism.

We have a lot of evidence that shows this. What you posit above amounts to exploiting the gifted child to benefit the needs of the other children. Gifted children are very open to being exploited by peers and teachers in the regular classroom.

It's wrong, and a detriment to the children and society.

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#216

Post by new_hackers » Wed, Jan 25, 2017, 7:51 PM UTC

mathattack wrote: post #209

My 2 cents as a parent... The "Don't let any kids fall behind" is an extremely laudable goal. Educating everyone, and aiming for a high standard for people of all abilities and socio-economic backgrounds is extremely vital. We may not be achieving that goal well, but it a very worthy one, and will do more than almost anything else to reduce income inequality. The danger is that having this focus in school means that…

Agreed, a civilized society should have a basic education curriculum which all students may participate in, regardless of sex, religion, or socio-economic status. This is the minimum bar that all should be granted.

However, most of the comments here seem to be assuming that school is 100% of a child's learning.

If you are a "gifted" student, then there are plenty of hours in the day to develop other skills. Or pony up the cash for private school.

The public school should be for educating the public. When I was young there was already basically two tiers of education within the public school, the AP track and the vocational track.

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#217

Post by bigtunacan » Wed, Jan 25, 2017, 7:51 PM UTC

_m8fo wrote: post #198

bigtunacan wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of kids today think that laziness and a "fuck all" attitude is totally ok. They don't think education is important and frankly don't realize the potential consequences this may have on them in later life. When I was a kid, I had to slop pigs, and shovel the shit out of the pen. My dad would say to me as we were shoveling pig shit or doing some other awful work, "This is why you get good grades. Some day you are…

I love this story. Thanks for sharing. I'm curious though, did you try this with your other kid? The one who's presumably not having any problems? I'm curious if your method would further strengthen their resolve.

While I haven't tried that particular thing on the other two kids I have used equally unique/creative "punishments" on all of the children.

I set strong boundaries and consistent enforcement for all of them. For minor infractions, my go to punishment is to make them do a plank while we "discuss" what they did wrong. If you have ever done planks you know the agony of holding a plank for long enough. The great thing about this as a disciplinary technique is that it is good for them physically; they are building core muscles so the older the kids is the longer they can hold the plank.

For serious offenses, I always like to come up with something more unique and memorable so it really sinks in.

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#218

Post by pawn » Wed, Jan 25, 2017, 7:53 PM UTC

CodeCube wrote: post #135

justin_vanw wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. This is a Harrison Bergeron argument. "We can't let people move quickly, because it might be unfair to other people." Effectively this means denying the people you can identify because there are going to be other 'deserving' people you don't identify. Replace 'education' with 'food' and see if this logic holds up: "We shouldn't feed the people we know are hungry, because other people might be hungry and now they w…

> The very gifted kids are going to isolate themselves from the dumb people as quickly as they can as soon as they can no matter what you do. This is quite an anecdote you've got there ... cause in my experience (gifted, and in gifted classes with many much brighter than me), all of us kept a pretty diverse (academically) social group. But that's _my_ anecdote ... surely people will exist on the entire spectrum betwe…

My anecdote matches yours. In highschool I was one of the higher-ranked people in my class, but I got along better with guys on the lower-end of the scale. Despite getting terrible grades, they often had a surprisingly quick wit that made them a pleasure to be around. Probably because they cared more about being funny than getting good grades. I sometimes wonder if it was motivation more than actual capacity that made the difference.

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#219

Post by _m8fo » Wed, Jan 25, 2017, 7:54 PM UTC

whorleater wrote: post #213

_m8fo wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I won't address your second point, as the problem we'd then be discussing is completely different (i.e. we're now discussing resource allocation). However, in regards to your first point: I said nothing about crippling those ahead. I'm curious what makes you say that honestly. Putting gifted students with "regular" students is not regression to the mean. Regression to the mean, would be putting gifted students in an…

> Putting gifted students with "regular" students is not regression to the mean. How is it not? "Gifted" students are not given a chance to grow, since there's no pressure for them to excel in a school where they're already ahead. "Gifted" students aren't different from other children, they're responsive to the same social pressures all students face, and placing them with a "gifted" peer group allows them to thrive.…

I don't understand your argument at all. It seems to hinge on some arbitrary obsession with gifted students. Your entire argument could be applied to at-risk students, who arguably need the help even more than gifted students and would see greater percentage gains as a result. Rather than discuss endlessly who should get what, we should rise the tide that raises all ships, no?

>"Gifted" students are not given a chance to grow, since there's no pressure for them to excel in a school...

"Regular" students are not given a chance to grow, since there's no pressure for them to excel in a school... I'll even humor you and apply this argument for "at risk" students. They, too, require pressure and engagement to excel. [1]

> Gifted students are among the most challenging for teachers to serve, as their needs lie outside the standard curriculum.

Indeed. Some gifted program curricula are simply minor modifications to standard ones, begging the question, why waste all of that money trying to barely change the curriculum? It would be better spent making school better in general. See my other sibling posts for citations.

[1] http://www.viriya.net/jabref/Academic_success_among_students...

Re: Should gifted students go to a separate school?

#220

Post by LordKano » Wed, Jan 25, 2017, 7:55 PM UTC

John23832 wrote: post #186

lend000 wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

High income families already send their children to "smart" private schools; why not allow gifted children on the public school track to enjoy similar opportunities?

Why not just make schools better for all, rather than replicating the educational resource hoarding that takes place in private schools?

Why not just make schools better for all, rather than replicating the educational resource hoarding that takes place in private schools?

Because we have working models for high performing specialty schools.

We already have endless infighting about improving every school.

And how do you define "better"? Is it a lower teacher to student ratio? Higher average test scores? Graduation percentage? Percentage of graduating seniors accepted at 4 year colleges? Some other measure?

I believe that I would have been better off in a separate school.

I have chosen to send my children to a charter school for that reason.