Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area? • Hacker News Board

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#211

Post by Rapzid » Wed, Dec 14, 2016, 9:33 PM UTC

caseysoftware wrote: post #161

nostrademons wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It takes about 2 years to save up $100K on a typical Bay Area engineer's salary, if you're fiscally prudent. Figure that $150K/year after taxes is about $110K/year, and live on $60K/year. That's eminently doable even in the Bay Area. The problem is that $100K is a very low estimate for a down payment in the Bay Area these days. Most people I know are getting parental help to put down $500K down, because with housing…

I agree with your premise but I suspect your numbers are a bit off. Regardless, whether it's 2 years or 3 years, to do the lifestyle you're suggesting takes and incredible amount of willpower to be willing to sacrifice and prioritize. It's passing up that cell phone upgrade. It's cutting discretionary spending to zero. It's passing on happy hour and bringing lunch every day. While feasible, it's hard.. but suffering…

It's worth pointing out that is just for the down payment. If you want to get ahead in life you need to be "saving" that much and more every year. And oops, your expenses just shot up dramatically because now you're a home owner.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#212

Post by astrange » Wed, Dec 14, 2016, 9:33 PM UTC

kLeeIsDead wrote: post #181

skylark wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My experience doesn't line up with your preconceived notions of the Bay Area at all. I've worked at three different jobs in San Francisco, and all of them were standard 9-5 jobs. I've worked weekends under 5 times. Most of my friends are in the same situation. Sure if you want to work at an early stage startup, you can grind yourself into a paste. But there are plenty of jobs here where that's not the case.

When he said "mind work", I took it as the constant, 24 hour stress I experienced while living there. Which sometimes is completely unrelated to work. The insane commutes, the work culture, the high rent / COL, the culture of trying to look as rich/smart/successful as possible, the sue happy people, the fact that there's absolutely nothing else to do other than work, etc really wore down on me. I lived in the south b…

I've carefully cultivated non-tech friends in SF/South/East Bay, to the point where I actually need to meet more tech people now since I have no idea what work life is like at other companies.

It's been worthwhile and we do plenty of stuff, but you have to be prepared to drive very long distances to see anyone. And many people who don't get into tech move away, so practically everyone is younger than me (and male) and can't afford the hipster restaurant visiting hobbies.

Oh, but the commute here is really not that bad compared to other American cities that aren't "world tier" (LA, Atlanta, DC) because those cities refuse to build mass transit.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#213

Post by austincheney » Wed, Dec 14, 2016, 9:34 PM UTC

rconti wrote: post #155

strictnein wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had almost the exact same situation, except I'm up in MN. Top notch schools and no crime, 4200sqft home, etc etc. The salaries in SV are way too low to ever consider a move.

Not disputing your conclusions, but I wonder what the hell people do with 4200sqft houses. I grew up in a very normal 5 bedroom multi-level house, 4 person family. It was 2400sqft. So were everyone else's houses. My house in the valley is about half that size, for 2 of us. Given infinite money, sure I'd like a bigger house. 2k, maybe 2500. I just cannot fathom why anybody would even WANT 4k+. I hear of people living…

You fill it full of junk. If you are a single male not addicted to vanity you can likely fit all your belongings in the backseat of a car. My largest belongings were the computer and the truck load of military clothing. Women tend to accumulate more stuff than men regardless of vanity. When you get kids people just give you more stuff than you need (or want) for the kids. The only limitation on the ever increasing accumulation is the space available.

Honestly, the two biggest rooms in this house just store stuff. I can absolutely live without that space. I do enjoy having an extra bedroom to use for... fill in the blank. I bought my house as a foreclosure for 125k and now Zillow lists it for 235k (a bit inflated). The value of my house is about the down payment on a house in San Jose and what I paid is half that.

I have a 2900sq ft home in Texas and we spend next to nothing on heating and AC. Our electric bill per month averages around $160 and peaks around $200 in the summer when we run the AC a bit harder. More than half the expense there is all the electronics in the house, primarily: kitchen utilities, computers, and large screens.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#214

Post by astrange » Wed, Dec 14, 2016, 9:35 PM UTC

chrisper wrote: post #176

skylark wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My experience doesn't line up with your preconceived notions of the Bay Area at all. I've worked at three different jobs in San Francisco, and all of them were standard 9-5 jobs. I've worked weekends under 5 times. Most of my friends are in the same situation. Sure if you want to work at an early stage startup, you can grind yourself into a paste. But there are plenty of jobs here where that's not the case.

Maybe it is because I live in the South Bay. But here it seems that everyone is just going to work and back home.. and that's it. There is nothing else going on here, but work work work.

Try Meetup or joining ridiculous activities like crossfit. I read someone here call them "secular cults" - why do you think people go to church everywhere else?

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#215

Post by JimboOmega » Wed, Dec 14, 2016, 9:35 PM UTC

evanpw wrote: post #123

harterrt wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This could also be an artifact of the metric. I call this the "Geico" fallacy. Geico advertises that "People who switch to Geico save 15% or more". Notice that people who would lose money by switching to Geico should rarely switch. Accordingly, this metric will usually be positive. Consider that people moving to a new city for a job may need more incentive to move.

I've always found those advertisements weird. If consumers are rational and have good information, then the average savings from switching is the same as "how much do you have to pay someone to switch to Geico?". The higher it is, the worse you should expect service to be!

Consumers don't have good information; applying for car insurance is a big pain, so they usually don't know. They probably apply once, then have the same car insurance for years... which might mean that they are paying too much.

Same basic problem as an employee who has worked at the same company for 10 years, and gotten their 3% raise every year - the market may have changed radically, but looking is a burden (emotionally, and otherwise) so they are unaware of that.

Enter a tremendous flood of car insurance advertising... to get people to actually evaluate if they are paying too much.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#216

Post by WhitneyLand » Wed, Dec 14, 2016, 9:37 PM UTC

Does this article have anything insightful?

It's easier to compare against Seattle: The housing is still very expensive, and you get only half as many sunny days.

Why not compare to someplace like Austin? Most people can afford a real house, it's very sunny, great grad school, great culture, great startup scene.

The SV big company advantage is not true. Most of the same big tech companies have a presence in Texas. And guess what. If you work for Microsoft, Amazon, etc, you get all the same stock compensation, same retirement matches, and your resume sparkles just as brightly.

The biggest advantage for SV that they don't even mention is making deals. VCs/Funding, partnerships, contacts, etc. All of these exist elsewhere just on a smaller scale. However this stuff is mostly an advantage if you start a company.

TripleByte's case is pretty weak.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#217

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Dec 14, 2016, 9:37 PM UTC

Bahamut wrote: post #198

kLeeIsDead wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When he said "mind work", I took it as the constant, 24 hour stress I experienced while living there. Which sometimes is completely unrelated to work. The insane commutes, the work culture, the high rent / COL, the culture of trying to look as rich/smart/successful as possible, the sue happy people, the fact that there's absolutely nothing else to do other than work, etc really wore down on me. I lived in the south b…

Not everyone has the same experiences with the Bay Area - I live in the Valley and my commute is better than when I lived in DC (where even going For me, it's mostly been great.

[deleted]

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#218

Post by nostrademons » Wed, Dec 14, 2016, 9:38 PM UTC

mr_pink wrote: post #195

nostrademons wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It takes about 2 years to save up $100K on a typical Bay Area engineer's salary, if you're fiscally prudent. Figure that $150K/year after taxes is about $110K/year, and live on $60K/year. That's eminently doable even in the Bay Area. The problem is that $100K is a very low estimate for a down payment in the Bay Area these days. Most people I know are getting parental help to put down $500K down, because with housing…

> It takes about 2 years to save up $100K on a typical Bay Area engineer's salary Have you actually done this? Know anyone who has? This seems completely implausible, outside of some extreme frugal lifestyle cases (I'm talking "eating garbage dumped by grocery stores" level frugal)...

I actually saved up $100K in about 18 months, working at a large Bay Area tech company and living in Mountain View. I don't feel I made significant compromises to do so, either: I had roommates for 6 of those 18 months but lived in a 1BR afterwards, I had friends (many of whom I still keep up with), I owned a car and got out on weekends. I did cook the majority of my (non-employer-provided) meals at home, and my friends tended to like relatively cheap activities like LAN parties, board games, and hiking rather than expensive meals out. I didn't go on any major vacations, but my family lives back East, and so that includes rather expensive airfare at Christmas, Thanksgiving, and 4th of July to see them.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#219

Post by sedachv » Wed, Dec 14, 2016, 9:39 PM UTC

bit_logic wrote: post #33

michaelchisari wrote: post #5

I ended up in Los Angeles because, despite being an expensive city, rents were cheaper than the Bay Area, and the salaries being offered were equivalent. I have a great place in LA that would easily be 50% to double the price in the Bay. This wasn't the only reason but it was one of the biggest. Another reason being that I wanted to work in tech as it relates to media and content, and there were many more options to…

Total compensation or base salary? LA base salaries are similar to the Bay Area, but very very behind when including stock (RSU/options) and bonuses.

> LA base salaries are similar to the Bay Area, but very very behind when including stock (RSU/options) and bonuses.

Can confirm. This has been my experience as a programmer in Los Angeles who has been approached and interviewed by a few Bay Area companies.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#220

Post by kobeya » Wed, Dec 14, 2016, 9:41 PM UTC

kLeeIsDead wrote: post #181

skylark wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My experience doesn't line up with your preconceived notions of the Bay Area at all. I've worked at three different jobs in San Francisco, and all of them were standard 9-5 jobs. I've worked weekends under 5 times. Most of my friends are in the same situation. Sure if you want to work at an early stage startup, you can grind yourself into a paste. But there are plenty of jobs here where that's not the case.

When he said "mind work", I took it as the constant, 24 hour stress I experienced while living there. Which sometimes is completely unrelated to work. The insane commutes, the work culture, the high rent / COL, the culture of trying to look as rich/smart/successful as possible, the sue happy people, the fact that there's absolutely nothing else to do other than work, etc really wore down on me. I lived in the south b…

I've lived in the South Bay my whole life and have absolutely no clue what you are talking about. There are subcultures of workaholic stress magnets, but they are easily avoided. I work 40 hour weeks, have non-tech hobbies and weekends are sacred. Your experience may be typical of the crowd you hang with, but not the valley as a whole.

I'm also mystified at the assertion that SF would be better in this respect. The conventional view is that SF is more status seeking and elitist while the South Bay neighborhoods are more laid back, or at least more diverse in their subgroup compositions.

The cost of living is insane, yes, although astronomical tech salaries entirely compensate for you and me. (Sucks for people who work retail though, and schoolteachers, police etc.)