Censored Photographs of FDR’s Japanese Concentration Camps • Hacker News Board

Re: Censored Photographs of FDR’s Japanese Concentration Camps

#211

Post by laumars » Fri, Dec 09, 2016, 6:11 PM UTC

knz wrote: post #197

laumars wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're taking his brief argument far too literally. Of course there was more at play than honour alone. However reasons aside, I'd argue your comment is moot as there's never a good reason to start a war. Edit: wow I'm surprised by the downvotes. Are you (who ever you are) suggesting you do agree with starting wars? I'd be very interested to hear why you disagree with me.

I didn't downvote you but personally I feel conflict can be justified - stopping the Holocaust and defeating the nation that committed genocide and atrocities such as the Rape of Nanking were enough justification without considering the invasion of a huge number of sovereign territories. It disgusts me that the world has sat by during recent genocides.

Thanks for the insight. I don't disagree your point per se. If war could be accomplished without further harming those citizens then I might agree. Or if war brought about positive change then maybe you could justify the means. But sadly we've seen time and time again that destabilising governments through instigating war - even horrible despotic regiems like the aforementioned - usually ends up with more long term conflict.

I should add that I'm against starting wars but not against retaliating, even ending the war, if and when required.

Re: Censored Photographs of FDR’s Japanese Concentration Camps

#212

Post by TazeTSchnitzel » Fri, Dec 09, 2016, 6:12 PM UTC

knz wrote: post #192

TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour was a strategic preëmptive strike, because they knew the US would come after their empire at some point. I don't think Japanese imperialism can really be defended. Of course, Japanese imperialism was very much inspired by European imperialism in… well, everything. But that doesn't make it right either, merely just as bad.

> because they knew the US would come after their empire at some point. This makes it sound as if the US only acted to end competition against another Empire. Japan invaded numerous territories for access to resources and committed horrible atrocities while doing so. The attack on Pearl Harbour may have been preemptive but the only reason for Japan to fear attack from others was due to actions of the Japanese.

> This makes it sound as if the US only acted to end competition against another Empire.

Well, that might well have been the case. While World War Ⅱ did put a stop to some horrible things, I don't know if that was because they were horrible or merely because their perpetrators were a threat. I suspect the latter.

Re: Censored Photographs of FDR’s Japanese Concentration Camps

#213

Post by FrancoDiaz » Fri, Dec 09, 2016, 6:13 PM UTC

The politics ban is lifted, and as usual, a complete degradation into the usual rhetoric.

People write a comment and think somebody's mind will be changed. Nope, not gonna happen. Just look at comments and replies.

It's just delusional thinking to think that HN is somehow above the fray when it comes to this stuff.

Re: Censored Photographs of FDR’s Japanese Concentration Camps

#214

Post by emmelaich » Fri, Dec 09, 2016, 6:14 PM UTC

Australia also interned Japanese as well as Germans and Italians during the wars.

http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/snapshots/internment-camps/...

The museum at Berrima is a good visit for people interested in war history.

http://www.migrationheritage.nsw.gov.au/exhibition/enemyatho...

Re: Censored Photographs of FDR’s Japanese Concentration Camps

#215

Post by semiel » Fri, Dec 09, 2016, 6:16 PM UTC

ars wrote: post #180

semiel wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since these countries (in some form or other) still exist, it's tempting to start making moral comparisons and trying to figure out "which side you should be on". But that's not the most interesting approach, in my opinion. Future historians won't be picking sides, they'll be trying to put it in context, understand the conditions that led to these behaviors, and draw out trends in the period. I can imagine a section…

I know you are trying to be objective and disinterested, but reading you combine the German and American camps as somehow comparable is utterly horrifying. You make it sound like they were both more or less the same, just some people were killed in the German ones. The goal of the German camps was to torture and kill, the American camps was to segregate. The "camps" part is an unimportant detail - yet you write as if…

They are comparable, though, and that's exactly my point. They're not the _same_ by any stretch of the imagination, but it's just a weaker reading of history to refuse to consider themes that were common to the time period.

The Nazi camps were started for the same reason as the American camps: to contain and control a population believed to be subversive. They were indeed later used as part of an organized genocide, which is very important and makes them far more horrifying on a moral/human level, but it's willful blindness to ignore the deep similarities between a policy of containing and suppressing a racial group, and a policy of containing, suppressing, and exterminating a racial group.

Re: Censored Photographs of FDR’s Japanese Concentration Camps

#216

Post by nbz118 » Fri, Dec 09, 2016, 6:21 PM UTC

Nadya wrote: post #27

hornbaker wrote: post #20

Most of them were Japanese Americans, born in America. One wonders why German Americans weren't given similar treatment.

Japanese, German, and Italians were all interned under the Alien Enemies Act.

True but they were overwhelmingly Japanese. It appears about 11K Germans and 2K Italians were interned compared to over 110K Japanese, despite there being significantly more Germans and Italians living in the US.

Sources:

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_of_German_Americans

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_of_Italian_American...

Re: Censored Photographs of FDR’s Japanese Concentration Camps

#217

Post by gurkendoktor » Fri, Dec 09, 2016, 6:30 PM UTC

burkaman wrote: post #111

nether wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most Germans were unaware of the camps until after the war. If we ever reimplement them, it won't be public. We won't (don't) know.

I have generally heard that isn't true, and it does seem hard to believe the government could hide such an enormous undertaking. People were disappearing, thousands employed to build and staff camps, lots of international coverage, etc. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Responsibility_for_the_Holocau... These days there would be satellite pictures of camps, cell phone videos of most of the internment process, reporters a…

It's not that hard to imagine, especially in sparsely populated corners of the world. Take this article:

http://www.weeklystandard.com/the-xinjiang-procedure/article...

Truth? Fiction? If true, would anyone risk precious trade with China over it?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_transplantation_in_China...

Maybe they've killed tens of thousands of people, maybe not? Doesn't seem to inspire many Western journalists to look for the truth, it's much easier to write another listicle about shiny malls in Shanghai after all.

Edit: To be clear, my implication is not that Germans didn't know about the holocaust. Rather, there was probably lots of hearsay and people conveniently ignored it.

Re: Censored Photographs of FDR’s Japanese Concentration Camps

#218

Post by boomboomsubban » Fri, Dec 09, 2016, 6:31 PM UTC

TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #149

djsumdog wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After the US et. al. cut off fuel and oil trade. They don't teach you that part in school. The saddest thing about WWII is that the people who started the war, by funding it, were never brought up on charges at Nuremberg. Prescott Bush and Standard Oil made millions off selling fuel to both sides. IBM made the punch-card based catalogue service for the Nazis. Henry Ford's company made tank treads for both allied and…

The Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour was a strategic preëmptive strike, because they knew the US would come after their empire at some point. I don't think Japanese imperialism can really be defended. Of course, Japanese imperialism was very much inspired by European imperialism in… well, everything. But that doesn't make it right either, merely just as bad.

Japanese imperialism was an attempt to get out from under the boot of US imperialism. The US showed up, forced their nation open to western powers,and spent the next 70 years intimately engaged in all their important decisions.

Japanese conduct during the 30s was atrocious. They tried playing by the moral code in earlier wars, the US and other Western powers repeatedly reneged on deals and forced Japan to return any possessions.

Re: Censored Photographs of FDR’s Japanese Concentration Camps

#219

Post by jimbokun » Fri, Dec 09, 2016, 6:32 PM UTC

hkt wrote: post #91

Just another example of the extreme moral ambiguity of the West. We regularly ignore our own standards around giving people a fair trial when it suits the executive of the day or when some stupid condition applies ("race" in this case, geography and citizenship for eg Guantanamo bay). Not to mention "strategic" alliances with dictators down the years that have usually proven to be murderous. It is sad to think that t…

The struggle for "Western Civilization" or "Western Values" has always been a struggle within our nations, rather than between us and the rest of the world.

Slowly, real progress has been made, but unevenly distributed, and often with great leaps backwards.

I will leave out my opinion about whether current events reflect a time of progress or one of those great backward leaps.

Re: Censored Photographs of FDR’s Japanese Concentration Camps

#220

Post by DVassallo » Fri, Dec 09, 2016, 6:32 PM UTC

The Nuremberg trials determined that "deportations and persecutions on racial grounds" were crimes against humanity [1]. I don't understand how FDR's executive order to deport Japanese-Americans to internment camps allowed the Nuremberg judges to punish Nazi members on this charge.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_principles#Principle...