Software Engineering Internship Amazon Interview Experience • Hacker News Board

Re: Software Engineering Internship Amazon Interview Experience

#211

Post by Alex3917 » Thu, Dec 01, 2016, 2:28 AM UTC

dgritsko wrote: post #107

kafkaesq wrote: post #18

The following information will be collected during the duration of the exam: Your microphone Your webcam Your physical location Your head movements Your eye movements Your mouth movements Creepy as all get-out. By all means, lets have more leaks like this.

It's worth noting that these are Proctorio's ( https://proctorio.com/ ) restrictions; they're just a third-party company that Amazon is using to administer the test. I've used a couple of similar systems (e.g. ProctorU - https://www.proctoru.com/ , where a human will actually watch you via webcam(!), or ProctorTrack - http://www.proctortrack.com/ ), and "monitoring" of this sort is pretty much par for the course (no…

This immediately brings to mind the history of scientific racism, specifically with craniometry being used to 'prove' that certain races are inferior. I realize this probably isn't what they're doing, but the fact that they're giving themselves permission to store facial data for later analysis seems questionable given the context.

Re: Software Engineering Internship Amazon Interview Experience

#212

Post by kevin_thibedeau » Thu, Dec 01, 2016, 2:30 AM UTC

dgritsko wrote: post #201

electic wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It just sends the wrong message. As a company, you are advocating tech that spies on people or in this case the test taker. Overall, it leaves a nasty taste in your mouth that a company would use technology such as this. What else would they be okay with doing once you start working there? Why not do an onsite if you want to make sure of the validity?

>Why not do an onsite if you want to make sure of the validity? Convenience and logistics. Is it worth yours (or Amazon's) time to pay for travel expenses, when applicants could literally be located anywhere? Evidently not, at least not in the early stages of the process.

Is it worth any applicant's time to participate in a silly dehumanizing screening process that boils you down to a number before ever speaking to someone?

Re: Software Engineering Internship Amazon Interview Experience

#213

Post by hermitdev » Thu, Dec 01, 2016, 2:30 AM UTC

audleman wrote: post #70

> To what extent should personal ethics play in deciding where a (software) engineer should work? I believe you should use your personal code of ethics as a compass to guide you in your life, including where you work. > What if the engineer has no other choices for a job, and needs to (make rent/pay the bills/eat food)? You're describing a clash of personal ethics and social ethics. Social ethics are saying this kind…

> "I believe you should use your personal code of ethics as a compass to guide you in your life, including where you work."

My first full-time job, I encountered this. I was less than a week away from quitting because of ethical concerns, and my boss got fired first. After that, I decided to give the company a chance, and I ended up being there for +9 years (was at a hedge fund).

I guess my advice is: are the ethics violations due to the company or your manager. If company, leave. If manager, report the violation. If no response, or retribution, leave. I held my manager's ethics violations in for ~6 months and it took an emotional toll. Not worth it. What he'd asked me to do was illegal and if I'd done it and been caught, I would have gone to jail. Fuck that, turn them in immediately.

Re: Software Engineering Internship Amazon Interview Experience

#214

Post by relics443 » Thu, Dec 01, 2016, 2:34 AM UTC

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #212

dgritsko wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Why not do an onsite if you want to make sure of the validity? Convenience and logistics. Is it worth yours (or Amazon's) time to pay for travel expenses, when applicants could literally be located anywhere? Evidently not, at least not in the early stages of the process.

Is it worth any applicant's time to participate in a silly dehumanizing screening process that boils you down to a number before ever speaking to someone?

If they need a job? Probably.

Re: Software Engineering Internship Amazon Interview Experience

#215

Post by jcoffland » Thu, Dec 01, 2016, 2:34 AM UTC

dgritsko wrote: post #201

electic wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It just sends the wrong message. As a company, you are advocating tech that spies on people or in this case the test taker. Overall, it leaves a nasty taste in your mouth that a company would use technology such as this. What else would they be okay with doing once you start working there? Why not do an onsite if you want to make sure of the validity?

>Why not do an onsite if you want to make sure of the validity? Convenience and logistics. Is it worth yours (or Amazon's) time to pay for travel expenses, when applicants could literally be located anywhere? Evidently not, at least not in the early stages of the process.

If it's not worth Amazon's time to interview me in person then it's not worth my time to consider them as a potential employer. This is just lazy and they will end up with lower quality candidates because of it.

Re: Software Engineering Internship Amazon Interview Experience

#216

Post by fattire » Thu, Dec 01, 2016, 2:34 AM UTC

relics443 wrote: post #192

electic wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It just sends the wrong message. As a company, you are advocating tech that spies on people or in this case the test taker. Overall, it leaves a nasty taste in your mouth that a company would use technology such as this. What else would they be okay with doing once you start working there? Why not do an onsite if you want to make sure of the validity?

Is it spying if they let you know what they will be doing?

Depending on which definition of "spying" you want to apply, it is spying. Moreover, it is invasive and unsettling.

Perhaps most critically, it is a more subtle test for the prospective employee-- are you the kind of person who would comply with a ridiculous request that violates your privacy in the hopes that it will land you a job?

I dunno. If I were an employer and an applicant actually installed this without question, it would make me seriously reluctant to hire them-- this is the sort of unquestioning, docile employee who could be more vulnerable to social engineering,who would not be likely to consider consequences of their actions, who does not take security, privacy, and safety as a priority for even themselves (and is therefore less likely to do so for customers and clients).

These may not be qualities that some companies value, but from my perspective, I think the "nope" letter to Amazon shows strength in independent thinking, creativity, and moral character.

It's like those companies that required you to hand over your social media passwords so HR could dig through your history.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/job-seekers-getting-asked-fac...

That is horrifying. If Amazon doesn't hire you because of this, it says quite a bit about their company, fuck 'em. Their loss. There are companies out there that actually respect their employees.

Congratulations. You passed the test.

Re: Software Engineering Internship Amazon Interview Experience

#217

Post by rdtsc » Thu, Dec 01, 2016, 2:34 AM UTC

Let's say if this would not be just for interns but for everyone. Then there would be this second order effect where they filter candidates who don't mind this happening to them. If they keep at it long enough, they'll end up shaping the culture of the company in a certain way. Which may not be the way they'd want.

Re: Software Engineering Internship Amazon Interview Experience

#218

Post by jcoffland » Thu, Dec 01, 2016, 2:36 AM UTC

Alex3917 wrote: post #211

dgritsko wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's worth noting that these are Proctorio's ( https://proctorio.com/ ) restrictions; they're just a third-party company that Amazon is using to administer the test. I've used a couple of similar systems (e.g. ProctorU - https://www.proctoru.com/ , where a human will actually watch you via webcam(!), or ProctorTrack - http://www.proctortrack.com/ ), and "monitoring" of this sort is pretty much par for the course (no…

This immediately brings to mind the history of scientific racism, specifically with craniometry being used to 'prove' that certain races are inferior. I realize this probably isn't what they're doing, but the fact that they're giving themselves permission to store facial data for later analysis seems questionable given the context.

This is not racism. It's a tool that could be used for racial discrimination but that's not the same thing. It's like saying a knife is murder.

Re: Software Engineering Internship Amazon Interview Experience

#219

Post by fattire » Thu, Dec 01, 2016, 2:36 AM UTC

zakki wrote: post #133

kafkaesq wrote: post #18

The following information will be collected during the duration of the exam: Your microphone Your webcam Your physical location Your head movements Your eye movements Your mouth movements Creepy as all get-out. By all means, lets have more leaks like this.

If it is using proctorio.com as mentioned in other comment, I think it is normal. On Juniper or Cisco certification test (using Pearson vue) they warn the candidate something like this (not fully the same especially for eye and mouth movements, but the candidate is video recorded). Basically it is to make sure the candidate is not cheating. The different is it is using Desktop provided by testing center partner.

Don't normalize it. It is not "normal". It's invasive as hell.

Re: Software Engineering Internship Amazon Interview Experience

#220

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Dec 01, 2016, 2:38 AM UTC

relics443 wrote: post #192

electic wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It just sends the wrong message. As a company, you are advocating tech that spies on people or in this case the test taker. Overall, it leaves a nasty taste in your mouth that a company would use technology such as this. What else would they be okay with doing once you start working there? Why not do an onsite if you want to make sure of the validity?

Is it spying if they let you know what they will be doing?

[deleted]