U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt • Hacker News Board

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#211

Post by conanbatt » Mon, Nov 21, 2016, 11:42 AM UTC

chronic6l wrote: post #209

JulianMorrison wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Basic income. Free tuition. An outright grant, no repayments. Literally zero barriers except ability for anyone, for any level of academic achievement in anything. Result: a culture with a lot more understanding of the real world, and the preservation of human and humane values, rather than a laser focus on the hand-to-mouth of Jobs Right Now.

> Basic income. Free tuition. An outright grant, no repayments. Literally zero barriers except ability for anyone, for any level of academic achievement in anything. Result: a culture with a lot more understanding of the real world, and the preservation of human and humane values, rather than a laser focus on the hand-to-mouth of Jobs Right Now. Incorrect. This will foster a culture of inferiority because not everyon…

By this line of argument, its not "incorrect" its just a wall to keep to separate ones of the others. Just because theres always a demand doesnt mean satisfying demands wouldnt make peope happier or better.

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#212

Post by conanbatt » Mon, Nov 21, 2016, 11:43 AM UTC

dvtv75 wrote: post #191

verbify wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are still people in the US without access to clean water. In some parts of the country, primary and secondary school education is abysmal. As far as I'm concerned, it's a question of priorities. Sure, I love the humanities, but the government only has so many tax dollars, and studying Shakespeare in university is not a priority.

So if the government stops wasteful funding of those fields considered to be not profitable, then these problems will be fixed?

It depends on what the people demand of government. Subsidy on higher education is another way to increase the wealth gap.

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#213

Post by chronic6l » Mon, Nov 21, 2016, 11:44 AM UTC

laughfactory wrote: post #113

rahimnathwani wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Why are interest free student loans never floated as an option?" Imagine what would happen if the US government made student loans interest free. Who would gain, and who would lose? (1) Students could afford to take out larger loans (as the repayments would be more affordable with 0% interest vs. 4.66% interest) (2) As a result of (1) colleges could charge higher tuition fees, without reducing the number of students…

You're right on the money. In fact, I'd argue that almost no one is smart enough (or wise enough) to only borrow what they really need. I went to college when I was 30. I thought I was smart. I knew that new graduates typically make, maybe, $40K. Yet, I signed up for the full boat...taking every last cent they'd loan me. Consequently, my wife and I are now $250K in debt--and have just bachelor's degrees (plus incompl…

> Basically, I've come to the conclusion that college is not for all.

Of course college is not for all. It is not something everyone just "does" because of "jobs". High schoolers and college students feel entitled. The vast majority should not be in college nor do they need a college education. If you are an 18-20 year old and cannot see this, then you sure as hell should not be in college.

Intellectual exploration? Community college is good enough. Parents taking $40K/year loans for tuition/rent for your private or flagship state university? Majoring in humanities? Ha. Go ask those graduates if college was worth it.

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#214

Post by shaftoe » Mon, Nov 21, 2016, 11:46 AM UTC

JulianMorrison wrote: post #204

Lazare wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, but how does that translate into policy? Fact 1: Education in the US is very expensive, in large part because the ready availability of loans removes most downwards pressure on prices. Fact 2: If you are loaned money to obtain a degree which is not economically valued then you will not be able to pay it back. Fact 3: If you loan people money without expecting people to pay it back, then it's not a loan, it's a…

Basic income. Free tuition. An outright grant, no repayments. Literally zero barriers except ability for anyone, for any level of academic achievement in anything. Result: a culture with a lot more understanding of the real world, and the preservation of human and humane values, rather than a laser focus on the hand-to-mouth of Jobs Right Now.

That sounds great, but there's no free lunch and when you ask people to pay (a lot) for something, you're going to get their opinion.

Here's mine. I roughly divide human activities into jobs and hobbies. One ultimately builds enough value to support existence, one is primarily done for enjoyment. Education for the former can and should pay for itself over the long haul, so we're discussing who pays for hobby education.

Personally, I don't want to pay for other people's hobbies. I've volunteered to teach people some of mine, spending hundreds of hours with educational groups. But, I can't imagine forcing taxpayers to pay for university education in these things.

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#215

Post by conanbatt » Mon, Nov 21, 2016, 11:47 AM UTC

hueving wrote: post #144

IslaDeEncanta wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment is the typical lack of perspective I expect from HN. Going to college is extremely stressful. Going to college poor (actually poor) is nearly impossible.

>Going to college poor (actually poor) is nearly impossible. This is not true. If you are poor (actually poor), there are so many government grants and scholarships for low income students that it's much easier financially than if you are middle class. If you are middle class, your parents frequently have to give up half a year's salary to help pay. Good luck going to college if you're not a top tier student and your…

Reality doesnt match your expectation.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/01/15/college-enro...

And note there are more low-income people than high-income people demographically.

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#216

Post by pricechild » Mon, Nov 21, 2016, 11:47 AM UTC

charlieflowers wrote: post #65

This is so obviously a scam that I don't see how it can hold up. Tuition has gone to sky high levels, and who is getting that money? Not the professors, let's get real. They have probably gotten sweet raises, but nowhere near the growth rate of tuition. The armies of "administrators" are getting huge salaries, but the main point of the whole bubble is that it is a great way to proactively enslave a whole new generati…

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/nov/16/universities...

In the UK the professors are lucky to have a permanent contract, nevermind sweet raises!!

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#217

Post by conanbatt » Mon, Nov 21, 2016, 11:52 AM UTC

Speaking from a purely market-driven position, the Student Loan Debt market has one issue that prevents colleges from not raising tuition prices: its the incapacity to default on loans.

Its obvious a huge part of the loans are used for careers that will never make its money back, and the loans only collateral are the person itself(not his parents assets). So if someone had an arts degree that cost him 150k, and never made that money, he should be able to default on that loan. As he does that, colleges have a strong incentive to keep tuition matched with the income produced by that degree.

My understanding is that college loans have a special protection by the government that makes them undefaultable. Dont subsidy college loans! Dont take more money from all(including under represented poor people) to put it in the pockets of colleges. Just make the loans defaultable, and you will see such a massive movement of defaults that colleges will never put unpayable debt ever again.

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#218

Post by 15thandwhatever » Mon, Nov 21, 2016, 11:56 AM UTC

krisroadruck wrote: post #13

I'm curious why we treat student loan debt as being special. We don't make a huge deal out of people taking on other debt and then being unable to pay for it. I think probably if anything, what we should have are better controls for what types of degrees you are allowed to take a loan out for. If your degree of choice is unlikely to yield the kind of return that will pay for it, then you should be required to save up…

We treat it as special because it's not a tangible asset.

If you run into extreme hardship, I can't repossess and sell your 4 years of education/partying for a market rate of its value.

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#219

Post by GFischer » Mon, Nov 21, 2016, 11:57 AM UTC

Free (1) tuition is an interesting option, but it's not the end all answer.

We have basic tuition in Uruguay, and, while people don't leave university with crippling debt, we still have the problem of people spending 4 or 5 years of their lives and leaving with a worthless degree (as in, they cannot get a job in what they studied). And they do end up in debt because they have to pay for food and housing while they study.

I feel very sad whenever I see a working class family breaking their backs to send their child to become an architect or a psychologist, because I know they won't be able to get a decent job (there's one architect per 400 citizens, and one in twelve in the workforce is a psychologist, they usually end up earning less than a store clerk if they don't set up a succesful practice).

Another problem is the strain on infrastructure, in the Engineering faculty they only have capacity to train about 300 to 400 students but over 2000 enter each year. The solution is to have extremely hard and cruel first year courses so at least half drop out in the first year and another half in the second year (I dropped out in second year and enrolled in a private university).

Another country with free university is Venezuela, and a problem I've noticed is that the quality of education is very uneven, there are graduates with titles that aren't worth the paper they're printed on. This doesn't happen in Uruguay that much because they force them to drop out (not a great solution either).

(1) here in Uruguay it's not entirely free, it's deferred - graduates from the public university have to pay about half a normal salary each year from 5 years after they graduate until they retire, so it often ends up more expensive than a private university.

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#220

Post by quonn » Mon, Nov 21, 2016, 12:00 PM UTC

nicksergeant wrote: post #67

charlieflowers wrote: post #65

This is so obviously a scam that I don't see how it can hold up. Tuition has gone to sky high levels, and who is getting that money? Not the professors, let's get real. They have probably gotten sweet raises, but nowhere near the growth rate of tuition. The armies of "administrators" are getting huge salaries, but the main point of the whole bubble is that it is a great way to proactively enslave a whole new generati…

They see through it. They just know they have no other option. Educators raise rates because they can, students pay the rates because they have to. It's the same problem we have in healthcare. Until employers start scrutinizing education in terms other than "No degree? No thanks.", then we will continue to have this problem, in my opinion.

> Until employers start scrutinizing education in terms other than "No degree? No thanks.", then we will continue to have this problem, in my opinion.

Requiring a degree is fine. Just waive state university tuition. In Germany education is free, for example.