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Why Do Americans Stink at Math?

nytimes.com

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Re: Why Do Americans Stink at Math?

#211

Post by graycat »

I'm an American, and I don't "stink at math". I will compare my math SAT and GRE scores with any nation in the world. Similarly for my Ph.D. dissertation in applied math and my peer-reviewed, published papers in applied math. Opps, those paper were already reviewed as "new, correct, and significant" according to international standards.

Next, uh, I do have some opinions about the NYT, e.g., their track record on getting and publishing good, correct information. Hint: That opinion could not go much lower.

Re: Why Do Americans Stink at Math?

#213

Post by compiler-guy »

snarfy wrote: post #113
atemerev wrote: post #97

The key to math education is practice. Even drilling, maybe. Other fields deal with concepts more or less mapped to the real world. Physics is about real world, more or less (right until you get to quants, then the level of abstraction rises dramatically). Same goes for biology, and even computer science in general. There, you can rely on words, which usually convey meaning. In math, you can't rely on words. You'll n…

This very much reminds me of learning to play a musical instrument. You don't need to learn a bunch of music theory to get better. You just need to practice a lot. The theory does no good if you can't actually play, and it makes much more sense to learn after you can play since you know what it already sounds like when reading about it.

The same goes for youth sports. You go to practice for a couple of hours a couple of times a week, and do the same thing or very close variations of it over and over and over.

Eventually you get pretty good, but there is just no substitute for good repetitions with a good coach correcting your form and technique.

Then you scrimmage where you put those into practice perhaps at a slower pace and get a chance to be creative, and then you put them into a game where things happen full speed. And after the game you evaluate what went well and what didn't.

It baffles me that anyone thinks mathematical learning (or any other) can be done any other way. Reps matter.

Re: Why Do Americans Stink at Math?

#214

Post by devilsavocado »

jomamaxx wrote: post #39
11thEarlOfMar wrote: post #3

It's an interesting question when you consider that in at least two university mathematics department rankings[1][2], the US holds 7 of the top 10 global spots. One could argue that for whatever reason, many of the professors, researchers and postdocs at those schools learned math in other countries, but, if these lists are to be believed, the US does have the richest mathematics knowledge in the world. So two questi…

"Why doesn't the preeminence of the US math knowledge appear to seep into the primary and secondary school education?" Because preeminence of top tier institutions (which are kind of global centres anyhow) - has absolutely nothing to do with teaching math to the commons. Here's a hint: +++ Americans don't suck at Math +++ There's a very un-PC but very large elephant in the room that people won't discuss. + European A…

This is a somewhat worrisome comment. It reaches for a lot of conclusions with zero supporting evidence.

There is no need to bring up race or ethnicity to describe this effect of scores getting worse. Everything you attribute to being Black or Hispanic can more simply and more accurately be described by being poor. SAT score is most directly tied to family income, not race. http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2014/10/07/sat-scores-and-inc...

Instead of worse scores being the result of changing ethnic composition, they are the result of changing income distribution, and the expansion of the lower class.

Re: Why Do Americans Stink at Math?

#215

Post by impendia »

germinalphrase wrote: post #187
impendia wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The teachers were taught math badly I'm a college math professor, and I've talked to people who've taught the required "math for elementary ed majors" class. From everything I've heard, it's bleakly depressing. The students (i.e., the future teachers) show little aptitude, curiosity, or work ethic. They just want to be shown algorithms that will always lead them to the correct answer. I haven't taught such a course…

This is likely different state-to-state, but I am aware that in the upper midwest primary education degrees are cross-subject area in focus. Your elementary teacher may not be a math major because they are expected to teach all subjects. There is also probably some bias against deep content knowledge because "it's elementary school after all". Secondary Education degrees are subject specific, so secondary education m…

>Your elementary teacher may not be a math major

In general they won't be, and I wouldn't expect them to be. The subject matter of these classes is usually much simpler than freshman calculus.

It's not math per se that I care about here. If, for example, these future elementary teachers disliked reading and displayed the same attitude towards being asked to write critically about a novel, then I would consider that equally disqualifying.

Re: Why Do Americans Stink at Math?

#216

Post by lotyrin »

js2 wrote: post #184
jimhefferon wrote: post #147

I teach math. I am impressed that when you read these comments, very few of them show evidence of having read the article. The article is about experience with actual students, with ones who have a real knack for the subject and would learn it despite what any teacher did, and with ones who waver. There proves to be a better way, which the article describes in various ways, including as "sense-making." One of the pro…

To me, the article isn't really about math... math is just used to illustrate how poorly we teach in America, and then talks about the reasons why, primarily that we do a really poor job of teaching teachers. Some key quotes: - It wasn’t the first time that Americans had dreamed up a better way to teach math and then failed to implement it. …The trouble always starts when teachers are told to put innovative ideas int…

I know this is off topic, but I wonder why we use Japanese like this. jugyo = lesson, kenkyu = research. If we absolutely must make it into a proper noun, some kind of brand to sell, how about just "Lesson Research" instead of Jugyokenkyu? But really, it seems it would be better to just say it plain: "Japan's educators research their lesson plans through a process where..." "Without performing research around their lesson plans, it was no wonder the American teachers..."

Re: Why Do Americans Stink at Math?

#217

Post by devilsavocado »

blahblah3 wrote: post #114
jacquesm wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not racism, it's Ethnicity! /s > Unfortunately, it's so sensitive few will want to talk about it - for fear that the general public equates educational outcomes to 'intelligence' and try to strongly correlate ethnicity + race to this, which would be fodder for racist/KKK types, which wouldn't really help the overall social situation in America. Fortunately we have you.

What is disagreeable about his comment? Do you disagree that examining a statistic by subgroup could provide more insight into the question?

I don't see any statistics in his comment. I actually don't see any supporting info at all. All I see is wild conjecture.

If he did go looking for statistics, he would find that the effect he describes is better explained by the expanding lower class in america, regardless of race.

http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2014/10/07/sat-scores-and-inc...

Re: Why Do Americans Stink at Math?

#218

Post by WhitneyLand »

jimhefferon wrote: post #147

I teach math. I am impressed that when you read these comments, very few of them show evidence of having read the article. The article is about experience with actual students, with ones who have a real knack for the subject and would learn it despite what any teacher did, and with ones who waver. There proves to be a better way, which the article describes in various ways, including as "sense-making." One of the pro…

>>everybody [on HN] has a pre-formed opinion and does >>not seem to want to risk having to modify it

Jim, this is seems like a crazy generalization. I assume you haven't tried to quantify this and it's just anecdotal opinion right? No problem, let's continue:

1). All my beliefs are falsifiable. Since your claim includes "everybody", I guess this counterexample alone proves your conjecture false.

2). If the most open minded community on the Internet scores 100, what score would you give HN? Can you name a single one that's better? I'd like to check it out.

3). How often does a response here randomly adopt the retort "Its Obama's fault" or an ad hominem attack? When it does happen it's almost immediately killed or downvoted off.

On a separate note, the article plays up how bad Americans are at math. Is this data controlled for household income and education level of parents? The factors are so significant it's hard to accept the data without them.

Lastly, my personal experience mostly matches the article. So many math classes were rote, boring, and uninspiring. I first learned it didn't have to be this way during discrete math because it required less algorithms, more creativity in proofs, and pulled back the curtain on what really made things tick.

Re: Why Do Americans Stink at Math?

#219

Post by chrismealy »

Merad wrote: post #181
krapht wrote: post #11

I found math class stultifying and boring until the focus switched from learning algorithms for computation to doing proofs of relations and concepts. Also I began to discover the actual applications for advanced math, instead of learning it for its own sake. I wish in hindsight that instead of taking endless years of calculus there was a high school version of real analysis, and exercise problems rooted in real-life…

I didn't really get into math until calculus, personally. There was this moment of realization that calc starts to describe the real world, opening up the ability to do all kinds of useful and interesting things. I ate up calc 1-3 and differential equations, even though I have no real use for them today. OTOH, my brain apparently just is not equipped to deal with proofs, either in mathematics or comp sci theory. They…

Me too. I loved the story problems in calculus. I felt like I had learned a secret magic spell. Unfortunately I never get to use it in real life.

Re: Why Do Americans Stink at Math?

#220

Post by hackermailman »

Japan times wrote a response to this article: http://www.japantimes.co.jp/community/2014/11/23/issues/teac...

Not mentioned is the Japanese preschool system: http://www.ernweb.com/educational-research-articles/mathemat...

"Seventy percent of all children attend preschool for three years. Young children are gradually trained in important school-related behavior, practicing routines that will be used throughout elementary school."

"Two traits pervade the culture and are taught by both parents and teachers: effort and persistence."

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