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The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

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Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#211

Post by cjjuice »

chirau wrote: post #187
cjjuice wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plato was always cautious of Democracy. If you are interested I would recommend give his "Republic" a read.

In it is suggested a form of government called epistocracy. It has a lot of merit in my opinion. The basic principle is 'rule of the knowers'. We elect knowledgeable people into power and let them make decisions. We don't vote on what medication a sick child should get, why should we vote on what remedy a sick economy needs? Let the knowledgeable that we have chosen make the prescription.

Philosopher Kings. Full of virtue, detached from ego, completely dedicated to the expansion of the common good.

If only.

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#212

Post by cookiecaper »

capote wrote: post #116
sergiotapia wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually agree that the title is purposefully bait-y and has an implication.

The title is a pretty clear and accurate summary of what's happening.

The title implies that a significant number of British people voted to leave the EU without even knowing what it was, and that their opinion is therefore uninformed and should not be respected. You believe that's a "pretty clear and accurate summary"? Even if you do, you at least recognize the bias and that it's not really fitting for a supposedly-neutral news outlet?

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#213

Post by lawpoop »

jneal wrote: post #195
netcan wrote: post #82

I'm strangely moved by this whole thing. It's a pretty decent status check on where we are with democracy ATM. I'm not against democracy, but I do think we need to pay attention to what it can & can't do. On one hand, this has been a model of democracy. A primary election agenda and referendum. The phrasing of the question was simple, clear and unbiased. The "will of the people" won over the will of the ruling struct…

The problem with democracy is the people are easily influenced by false truths. I'm all for democracy, but I also realize that a well informed vote and an uninformed vote are equal and therein lies the problem. It's not really something that can be fixed within a true democracy.

Isn't that a problem with all forms of government? That the people in charge can be influenced by false truths?

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#214

Post by jeli »

maxaf wrote: post #10
mikeash wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That reminds me of certain American voters saying they support Trump just because they want to tear the system down. I don't think they realize what tearing the system down would actually mean.

There's no harm in tearing down something that doesn't benefit the majority of voters in this country. I say let 'er burn.

Ahh yes, there's no benefit to being under the American government; we might as well all pack up and move to North Korea, because any change is good change!

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#215

Post by nzp »

thesimpsons1022 wrote: post #166

the general public is too dumb to vote on matters like this. This is when democracy fails. Remember, Hitler was elected as well.

No, we don't remember. It might have to do with the fact Hitler wasn't ever elected for anything. Neither has NSDAP ever had a majority before they took power.

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#216

Post by zaphar »

netcan wrote: post #82

I'm strangely moved by this whole thing. It's a pretty decent status check on where we are with democracy ATM. I'm not against democracy, but I do think we need to pay attention to what it can & can't do. On one hand, this has been a model of democracy. A primary election agenda and referendum. The phrasing of the question was simple, clear and unbiased. The "will of the people" won over the will of the ruling struct…

Democracy works when those participating are both educable and rational.

Monarchies, Dictatorships, Oligarchies work if the ones in charge are educable, compassionate, and rational.

Democracy wins out a little since the checks and balances of rule by a majority tend to make it a little bit easier to counter the worst excesses of rule by a few. So as a working base it's a good starting point.

Republics are even better since they make it possible for rational actors to prevent the worst consequences of demogoguery and mob rule.

Nothing is perfect though they all have weaknesses. You can't fix government without fixing people. And that doesn't look likely anytime soon.

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#217

Post by rattray »

brador wrote: post #189
Inthenameofmine wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We haven't figured this shit out yet. Kings anyone? How about the best wrestler gets to be in charge? ideas? As a Swiss citizen, I think the swiss system is very close to perfect in this regard. Sure, emotional and stupid arguments sometimes prevail, but most of the time the people make the perfect decision. Public discourse is most often also very rational, more so than most world parliaments. Irrational arguments…

How about dynamic voting? Let voters change their vote in real time up to the final second or to a percentage cut off. Mathematically, 1-(1/e) percent is the ideal cut off (~63%).

> Mathematically, 1-(1/e) percent is the ideal cut off (~65%)

What? can you explain?

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#218

Post by [deleted] »

jazzyk wrote: post #173
toomuchtodo wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By representatives. You need a buffer between raw emotion and action. Otherwise, this happens.

How is this "raw emotion", though? Leaving the EU has been discussed for a few years now, quite widely. Also, "raw emotion", direct democracy (in Switzerland, for example) can work very well. Direct democracy may not scale well, hence we need representation, but big issues should be left up to the people to be voted on. In the end, I believe, the people in the UK voted against not so much the idea of EU, but rather e…

[deleted]

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#219

Post by rattray »

njloof wrote: post #191
thesimpsons1022 wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

well he's making it sound like a bad thing, so I wanted to know what exactly he meant.

Prop 8, for example. Or Prop 13.

(for context to the unaware, these are generally regarded as terrible policies)

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#220

Post by mstade »

Inthenameofmine wrote: post #145
netcan wrote: post #82

I'm strangely moved by this whole thing. It's a pretty decent status check on where we are with democracy ATM. I'm not against democracy, but I do think we need to pay attention to what it can & can't do. On one hand, this has been a model of democracy. A primary election agenda and referendum. The phrasing of the question was simple, clear and unbiased. The "will of the people" won over the will of the ruling struct…

> We haven't figured this shit out yet. Kings anyone? How about the best wrestler gets to be in charge? ideas? As a Swiss citizen, I think the swiss system is very close to perfect in this regard. Sure, emotional and stupid arguments sometimes prevail, but most of the time the people make the perfect decision. Public discourse is most often also very rational, more so than most world parliaments. Irrational arguments…

> Direct democracy is something that has to be done regularly [...]

I think there's a lot of truth to this. When referendums are seldom, I believe there's a real risk of them turning into spectacle. (And at worst, a weapon for use by nationalists and fascists, like what happened in Germany in the 30s.)

When they are regular, and limited, and like in Switzerland not something pulled on a whim but actually requires some work to call, they might just work. But that also kind of assumes an informed electorate, which is perhaps the main point here – the electorate hasn't been very well informed, either way.

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