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What Urbit is

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Re: What Urbit is

#211
post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I remember really enjoying the last discussion. Very happy to hear that. > I'm not sure I'm able to understand the implicit criticism at the user level. Let me make the criticism explicit then: inventing a new language is not hard. People do it all the time. It's an elementary exercise. However, inventing a good new language, i.e. one that actually advances the state of the art and provides a substantial advantage…

Forgive my ignorance, but a typed functional system all the way down to machine is a huge departure from today's languages built on top of imperative dynamic machines, and a huge advantage in building typed functional systems, isn't it? I would go so far as to say that without a new machine and new languages designed for it, the abstraction will always leak. Which is why our software sucks today.

That's true, but Urbit isn't like that. It runs on stock hardware, which is to say, untyped imperative hardware. And even from a purely theoretical point of view, Urbit's lowest level (Nock) is untyped.

The last time anyone built a computer that was typed all the way down to the hardware was (ironically) Lisp machines.

Re: What Urbit is

#212
post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or maybe even the most interesting and important project since Xanadu.

It has the cult-like approach of Xanadu - use new terminology, tie it to an economic model, and re-invent everything. Also, there seems to be a cult leader. Jargon: noun (data), nock (interpreter), mint (compiler), span (type), twig (expression), gate (function), mold (constructor), core (object), mark (protocol). It's Newspeak for programmers. The overall concept seems to be a federated social system, like Diaspora.…

Yep, this precisely. Hit the hammer on the head on this comment.

My gut feeling was this was a bucket of NiH syndrome. There was too much duplication of work, and way too much made-up jargon to throw us off the mark of what it really was.

But yeah, a cult.

Re: What Urbit is

#213
post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because people don't just see Urbit, if they end up participating long-term. They see Yarvin, and he definitely is not one to hide his worldview. As much as some people like to pretend it's only about tech, tech is made by people and it requires them to interact with each other, and that can never be completely confined to code.

>They see Yarvin, and he definitely is not one to hide his worldview. While talking to Urbit contributors about Urbit?

By definition no, of course. But I have never done a non-trivial amount of open source-style work (coding or otherwise) with someone who shares their political views online, without learning about them somehow.

And in fact, every Urbit contributor in this thread who's mentioned this has also heard about Yarvin's political views, and not from this thread. It appears to me there's already a kind of self-selection process in Urbit contributors, towards those who are comfortable tolerating his garbage. And that's exactly the problem.

Re: What Urbit is

#214
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone can say they aren't an outspoken advocate for slavery. Take a look at this http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.co.uk/2009/07/why-c... and see whether you find it plausible to say that the author is not an outspoken advocate for slavery.

I have read it and I don't think the author is an outspoken advocate of slavery. The passage most frequently cited as evidence of this charge is: Thus, Spaniards and Englishmen in the Americas in the 17th and earlier centuries, whose sense of political correctness was negligible, found that Africans tended to make good slaves and Indians did not. This broad pattern of observation is most parsimoniously explained by g…

I don't think the case for Moldbug-as-pro-slavery based on that article rests on picking two sentences from it. Here are a few more.

Fairly early on, he argues for a more modest proposition:

"A society is richer if each individual in it has the right to bind her future actions by agreed obligations, in return for which others may exchange other consideration. [...] we are almost all the way to Carlyle on slavery. We have not agreed that a man can be born a slave, but we agree that he can sell himself into slavery. That is: he can sign a contract with a master in which the slave agrees unconditionally to obey and work for the master, and the master agrees unconditionally to protect and support the slave."

OK, but that's only voluntary slavery. What next?

"It is only a short step from seeing the State as an enforcer of voluntary and binding obligations, to an enforcer of involuntary and arbitrary obligations. No society can possibly exist without uncontracted obligations."

He goes on to give (not being allowed to trespass on) inherited property and (the obligations that come with) family relationships as examples of uncontracted obligations.

OK, so Moldbug is in favour of voluntary slavery and thinks that sometimes it's good for the state to enforce involuntarily acquired obligations. We're still not all the way to actual slavery, of course; it depends on what sort of involuntarily acquired obligations the state should be enforcing.

"Indeed, the definition of family in most times and places has included slaves. [...] The relationship of master and slave is a natural human relationship: that of patron and client."

So now he tells us that slavery is natural and suggests (though he doesn't exactly say it) we should think of it as an aspect of family. He goes on to discuss slavery (being bound to one person), serfdom (being bound to a patch of land and its owners), and ordinary government (being bound to a much larger patch of land and its owners -- it seems to me like there are some super-important differences between serfdom and citizenship, but never mind), and concludes from how widespread these systems are:

"This is a pretty good clue that this structure is one to which humans are biologically adapted."

OK, so he says slavery is natural and humans are biologically adapted to it. Now what?

"Not all humans are born the same, of course, and the innate character and intelligence of some is more suited to mastery than slavery. For others, it is more suited to slavery."

(It is interesting to put this alongside his protestations that when he says black people are less intelligent than white people, of course he isn't at all making any sort of value judgement or saying that white people are better, dear me no.)

OK. So he says slavery is natural, humans are biologically adapted to it, and some people's inborn characteristics make them natural slaves. What next?

"These characteristics can be expected to group differently in human populations of different origins. [...] Africans tended to make good slaves and Indians did not. This broad pattern of observation is most parsimoniously explained by genetic differences."

So now we see the passage you quoted in its context. He says: Slavery is natural, humans are biologically adapted to it, some people's inborn characteristics make them natural slaves, and these characteristics are distributed differently in different populations; for instance, at least a few hundred years ago, Africans made good slaves, and this is probably for genetic reasons.

(But oh deary deary me no, when he says there are statistical differences in certain psychological characteristics between races, he doesn't mean any sort of value judgement by it. Only that some races are naturally suited to slavery and others to mastery, that's all. Who could possibly object to that?)

"Conversely, the subject-government relationship easily becomes dysfunctional for clients who are natural slaves, ie, are not capable of guiding themselves to live in a human and humane manner. [...] If all long-term welfare cases were transferred from Washington to the authority of genuine, truly charitable nonprofits, for example, their new human supervisors could intervene on a personal, discretionary basis to compel them to get their acts together. This would be a step toward humanity in our society - and also a step toward slavery."

So: he says slavery is natural, some people are natural slaves, those people won't flourish as free citizens; "all long-term welfare cases" are in this category; they should become, in effect, slaves -- for their own good, of course! -- and this would be an improvement.

(But no, of course he isn't an outspoken advocate of slavery. How could anyone think such a thing?)

Re: What Urbit is

#215
post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have read it and I don't think the author is an outspoken advocate of slavery. The passage most frequently cited as evidence of this charge is: Thus, Spaniards and Englishmen in the Americas in the 17th and earlier centuries, whose sense of political correctness was negligible, found that Africans tended to make good slaves and Indians did not. This broad pattern of observation is most parsimoniously explained by g…

I don't think the case for Moldbug-as-pro-slavery based on that article rests on picking two sentences from it. Here are a few more. Fairly early on, he argues for a more modest proposition: "A society is richer if each individual in it has the right to bind her future actions by agreed obligations, in return for which others may exchange other consideration. [...] we are almost all the way to Carlyle on slavery. We…

This would be a much more interesting post without the tired sarcasm every other paragraph.

Re: What Urbit is

#216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stop with the ad hominem attacks and start posting something of substance. If you have examples of these 'repugnant' views then share them, I haven't seen anything that matches that description when read in context.

I would benefit from this. I don't doubt that Curtis's views are probably offensive, but I haven't seen a clear description of them to conclude that for myself. I tried reading some of his writing, but it seemed so abstract and obfuscated that I gave up before understanding what he was trying to get across. I've seen one-sentence descriptions of his beliefs and they sound horrible, but I've also seen enough tweet-len…

The closest thing I know of is Scott Alexander's Reactionary Philosophy in an Enormous, Planet-Sized Nutshell [1]. It's more of an essay/argument than an impartial overview, but (besides being a good read by one of the smartest and most interesting bloggers on earth) I think it's the most even-handed, neutral and informative thing you're likely to read about Yarvin's beliefs.

(NB - the article refers to Yarvin as "Mencius Moldbug", his nom de plume for political ranting)

[1] - http://slatestarcodex.com/2013/03/03/reactionary-philosophy-...

Re: What Urbit is

#217
post #199
post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because there are a great fewer purely technical decisions in the world of software than some people around here seem to believe, and people's beliefs, worldviews, experiences and identities matter. They matter a lot. And to the extent that software is, as they say, "eating the world," the kinds of people who are writing software and the kinds of people that aren't has a profound impact on our society. If you look at…

> And making this place more welcoming to Curtis Yarvin by focusing discussion on the technical merits of Urbit and ignoring his personal views is a signal to a lot of other people about what we as a community value and what we don't. And I think it's a bad signal, because it alienates people with valuable and important viewpoints that we ought to be finding ways to be more open to, not less. So if someone working on…

It's worth noting that slippery slopes are a rhetorical fallacy[1] -- most slopes aren't slippery and most things aren't even slopes. I outlined why I think these personal views are relevant to the discussion. I don't think it's useful or necessary to lay out a general principle as to when personal views are relevant to the discussion, and I don't see any danger that Hacker News will be overrun by irrelevant discussions of someone's personal views if we continue to engage in this relevant discussion of personal views.

1) http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/slippery-slope.html

Re: What Urbit is

#218
post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the case for Moldbug-as-pro-slavery based on that article rests on picking two sentences from it. Here are a few more. Fairly early on, he argues for a more modest proposition: "A society is richer if each individual in it has the right to bind her future actions by agreed obligations, in return for which others may exchange other consideration. [...] we are almost all the way to Carlyle on slavery. We…

This would be a much more interesting post without the tired sarcasm every other paragraph.

I'm sorry you don't like it. But those comments are there for a reason: to link what he said in that article with the claims he's making now.

As for the sarcasm: when someone (1) talks at length about how natural slavery is and how some people are naturally fitted for slavery, and calls for all long-term government benefit recipients to be made into slaves, and (2) insinuates (without quite saying it explicitly) that the average black person really ought to be a slave because that's what their inborn character and intelligence make best for them, and then (1') gets indignant at being called an advocate of slavery and (2') insists, in tones of offended innocence, that if anyone thinks them racist for taking about mental differences between black and white people, the problem is all theirs for being so "IQist" ... well, I really think some amount of sarcasm is called for.

Re: What Urbit is

#219
post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This would be a much more interesting post without the tired sarcasm every other paragraph.

I'm sorry you don't like it. But those comments are there for a reason: to link what he said in that article with the claims he's making now. As for the sarcasm: when someone (1) talks at length about how natural slavery is and how some people are naturally fitted for slavery, and calls for all long-term government benefit recipients to be made into slaves, and (2) insinuates (without quite saying it explicitly) that…

This just reads like "The other guy is a jerk, therefore I'm justified in being a jerk when describing him".

Re: What Urbit is

#220
post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry you don't like it. But those comments are there for a reason: to link what he said in that article with the claims he's making now. As for the sarcasm: when someone (1) talks at length about how natural slavery is and how some people are naturally fitted for slavery, and calls for all long-term government benefit recipients to be made into slaves, and (2) insinuates (without quite saying it explicitly) that…

This just reads like "The other guy is a jerk, therefore I'm justified in being a jerk when describing him".

That's not my meaning at all, in at least two ways.

Firstly, this isn't about what sort of person Yarvin is (jerk or not-jerk), it's about what he's done in the specific instance we're talking about.

Secondly, neither advocating slavery and oppression nor being sarcastic about a stranger on the internet is the same thing as being a jerk.

So it's more like "The other guy is being grossly dishonest about the terrible horrible no good very bad things he has said, therefore I'm justified in being quite vigorous in pointing out the dishonesty of what he's saying now and the horribleness of the things he said before".

FWIW I doubt Yarvin is a jerk. I expect he's pleasant and interesting company and kind to strangers and animals. Being a jerk is just one of many ways to go wrong, and it is not what I am claiming Yarvin has done. If all the bad things I say about Yarvin and more are true, and if those are not just one-off occurrences but a matter of settled character, then the consequence isn't that he's a jerk, it's more that he's a fascist or something. I happen to think I'm not a jerk either, but at least you're in the right ball-park there: if all the bad things you say about me and more are true, and if that is a matter of settled character rather than a one-off, then indeed I'm a jerk :-).

[EDITED for clarity here and there; no changes to meaning.]

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