Bootcamps vs. College • Hacker News Board

Re: Bootcamps vs. College

#211

Post by badminton1 » Thu, May 19, 2016, 7:23 PM UTC

Having interacted with a lot of both lately, my impressions are that bootcamp graduates focus on mostly on functional requirements.

They have a hard time identifying non-functional requirements, assessing and mitigating risk, and start getting confused when things go low level.

In my experience, all "friendly" technologies have sharp edges somewhere, where you start getting exposed to low level issues. When you face these issues, there's no guarantee the answer will be in stack overflow and you will appreciate having learned some theory.

Re: Bootcamps vs. College

#212

Post by busterarm » Thu, May 19, 2016, 7:23 PM UTC

lsadam0 wrote: post #175

busterarm wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are they saying that it's an actual okay thing to do? ...like, you challenged them on it and had a discussion and they said it was perfectly okay regardless of size of array? Or it was just allowed to let lie and they said it's an okay thing to do because that's what's in their code? I think it's a huge mistake to conflate whether someone does know and whether they can know something. Some of the best programmers I'v…

There were a few hundred applications to sort through for the position. Applicants all received the same test. The initial response is used to filter the pool and decide with whom to speak with further. Only with a filtered applicant pool is it reasonable to sit and discuss their solution with. Some criteria is needed to filter the pool, so obviously those that have submitted a better initial solution will be selecte…

There are many reasons why I think this process is broken that others have written so much at length about enough that I'm not going to bother taking the time.

If it's enough for you to say that because you have a test that everyone takes and it filters your candidates so that's proof of ability, without even going into the results and asking if your test is optimizing for the correct things, there's nothing I can say to convince you otherwise.

Anecdotal, but I know about a half dozen people with experience and CS degrees who would blow your filter but can really get shit done and don't really need any training.

Hiring is hard and the real shame of this industry is that collectively we don't approach this problem with the same level of rigor that we do everything else because by and large we consider this sort of work to be beneath us and not worth a significant investment of our time.

Re: Bootcamps vs. College

#213

Post by matthewmacleod » Thu, May 19, 2016, 7:24 PM UTC

warlox wrote: post #172

matthewmacleod wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chill out! It's not that four years of study guarantees capability, but four years of study does mean far more exposure to far more technology and methodologies than a 12-week bootcamp can offer. In my experience, boot-camp and self-taught developers have a different set of skills from a CS graduate. The former could well be very effective at lots of development tasks - but I have found that knowledge is often shallo…

Does this include the CS graduate from BYU-Idaho or Oral Roberts University?

No, but I'm in the UK and haven't really encountered many US CS graduates. It's possible that there are fewer poorly-skilled graduates here I guess.

Re: Bootcamps vs. College

#214

Post by pera » Thu, May 19, 2016, 7:24 PM UTC

andrewvc wrote: post #107

What a load of crap. What, they bred the capacity for abstract thought into you in college? College attracts a generally higher quality applicant pool. You're mistaking selection bias for an effect. Let me tell you, I've interviewed programmers from all over. There are boatloads of people with CS degrees with close to zero capacity for creative thinking. There are also boatloads of CS grads who can barely code their…

I couldn't agree more. Although this may not have any statistical significance, I have personally met more great computer scientists with no CS degrees (but usually with some other STEM degree) than CS grads. My explanation for this funny modern phenomenon is that CS have been attracting, for the last two decades, people with no real interest in the ``science'' part in CS :) and universities are not helping either (eg teaching Java and SICP w/Python!). The solution? make CS much much more theoretical.

Re: Bootcamps vs. College

#215

Post by jasonthevillain » Thu, May 19, 2016, 7:26 PM UTC

sillysaurus3 wrote: post #115

nostrebored wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My CS degree was four years of heavy abstract thinking. If you can get those skills elsewhere great, but I don't think it's that common.

Based on what? The amount of bias in this thread is very strange. I think what's going on is that the people with CS degrees invested a significant chunk of their life and a significant amount of money into getting a CS degree. Therefore they're invested in denying the possibility that the qualities they achieved through their program can be achieved without. The article presents some evidence in support of this poss…

Oh yeah, this is the "self-taught developers aren't as good as those with CS degrees" nonsense again.

Re: Bootcamps vs. College

#216

Post by Bahamut » Thu, May 19, 2016, 7:26 PM UTC

nostrebored wrote: post #106

mattnedrich wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the most important quality is being able to think abstractly and solve problems, why does it matter if they have a CS degree or come from a bootcamp? I do agree with you that CS degrees are very valuable, though it seems like you are saying that they are important because they teach problem solving and abstract thinking - but aren't there many ways to obtain those types of skills?

My CS degree was four years of heavy abstract thinking. If you can get those skills elsewhere great, but I don't think it's that common.

I did math and physics in undergrad and math in grad school, and IMO they do more for critical thinking than CS.

I too mainly care about how someone thinks, since the wrong implementation can be very costly, and strong thought processes can help pre-empt that greatly.

Re: Bootcamps vs. College

#217

Post by madmax96 » Thu, May 19, 2016, 7:27 PM UTC

llamataboot wrote: post #54

madmax96 wrote: post #32

I have a slightly more pessimistic view of the situation: Sure, bootcamp grads can write a web application just fine; after all, it's usually only CRUD. But what value are they bringing to an organization? Why would I pay them the same amount as a college graduate who undoubtedly has more total knowledge not only in CS, but in other areas as well? Ideally, a college should expose students to a diverse range of knowle…

Yes, but then I would argue that a mid-career switcher like me (bootcamp here - now employed full time as a programmer for 2+ years) brings a TON of value to your organization. Rather than a fresh-out-of-college person, I have a Master's Degree in my first field, tons of experience working with diverse stakeholders, meeting deadlines, dealing with people I may not get along with, getting to consensus, etc etc -- as w…

I think you'd be right in this assessment, especially for those in a position somewhat related to their previous occupation.

Re: Bootcamps vs. College

#218

Post by badminton1 » Thu, May 19, 2016, 7:28 PM UTC

brudgers wrote: post #184

There are several factors that don't enter this analysis. 1. Bootcamps can be selective over a range of non-academic criteria such as interview skills, personal hygene, and prior work experience. Or to put it another way, unlike a public university, a boot camp can select for culture fit both in its internal cohorts and in the workplaces it targets. 2. Bootcamps tend to attract people with previous work experience: s…

Yes. Also some featured students are college students. College and bootcamps are not mutually exclusive.

Re: Bootcamps vs. College

#219

Post by madmax96 » Thu, May 19, 2016, 7:30 PM UTC

busterarm wrote: post #104

MAGZine wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The people I seeing decrying degrees as credentialism are invariably those out of bootcamps. I get that people may be satisfied with the level of education they received, but why do they attempt to cheapen others' experiences? People always talk about how they're concerned with a candidate's ability to see something through, work hard on something with deadlines, know how to learn new things/not just knowing one thin…

A lot of people flat out say "I don't even consider bootcamp grads" when my experience looking at hundreds of my peers is that it's a rare few that have _just_ their bootcamp on their resume. A few in my cohort even had actual CS degrees but wanted practical skill to make themselves marketable. To overlook advanced degrees + bootcamp (+ experience) because they don't have that precious CS degree absolutely is credent…

I agree with you -- it seems totally inappropriate to invalidate a candidate instantaneously due to a lack of a CS degree. That being said, I think a CS degree is, and should be, a competitive advantage.

Re: Bootcamps vs. College

#220

Post by huehehue » Thu, May 19, 2016, 7:30 PM UTC

busterarm wrote: post #84

HNcow wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's good to hear about the SQL. Honestly, we sort of didn't even bother with AA candidates because I went to the website to check it out, and first thing it says is "graduates earn an average of 89k in NYC". Instantly knew that whatever they were telling the students, we couldn't afford em. On Indeed, we get a lot of crossover because of our proximity to NYC. I think we come up if you do a 50mi radius and search j…

You're right, you probably can't afford them. Salary range in my cohort was 60k-105k, but it's typically higher. a/A grads are in the unfortunate position of having their camp be "free" ($5k deposit) up front and 18% of your first year salary upon hire. They basically have to earn more to pay off the bootcamp. I had to pass on my dream gig (apprenticeship at 8th Light in LA) in part because the debt to App Academy wo…

It looks like App Academy is still claiming no upfront cost. I successfully applied a few years ago; despite hearing the "X% of your first year's salary" speech over and over, I was told I would not only need to pay a heavy deposit, but the entire program cost. Kush Patel (the founder) claimed people were bailing after the program and my young age made me a risk.

I can understand those kinds of problems, but waiting until I was accepted to disclose them left me a bit upset. I suggested they update their site, but it appears they still haven't done so.