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The NSA’s machine learning algorithm may be killing thousands of innocent people

arstechnica.co.uk

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Re: The NSA’s machine learning algorithm may be killing thousands of innocent people

#211

Post by a3n »

DyslexicAtheist wrote: post #103
Houshalter wrote: post #7

They literally named it Skynet. They have an evil sense of humor. Actually using machine learning to detect terrorists isn't a terrible idea. But you are going to get an error rate, and probably a high one in the noisy real world. Maybe only 50% of the people you detect are actually terrorists. Maybe it's even worse than that. We can't even test it because there is no validation set and unreliable labels. The reasona…

A drone strike typically kills identified terrorist targets but also unidentified targets. The trick is that as long as bystanding casualities (also children yes - or as the drone operators call them "fun sized terrorists") have not been identified they're automatically counted as terrorists. (see also https://theintercept.com/drone-papers/ ) I don't think now that the beast has been unleashed it can be controlled or…

> A drone strike typically kills identified terrorist targets but also unidentified targets.

A drone strike typicall kills identified terrorists because they need to be able to say that. It's much better to be able to say "... and some collateral damage" than "We hit a wedding party."

Re: The NSA’s machine learning algorithm may be killing thousands of innocent people

#212

Post by gremlinsinc »

MichaelBurge wrote: post #196
dilemma wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which candidate do you mean will stop it?

Rand Paul would. Bernie Sanders might.

Bernie definitely would, except -- I'm not too sure JFK wasn't an inside job w/ the CIA - I wouldn't put assinating a president past the NSA, heck I wouldn't put anything past them, the more I read--the more I feel like I woke up in 1984, and we're already in some post-apocalyptic world where Big brother controls everything but we just don't know it (yet).

Re: The NSA’s machine learning algorithm may be killing thousands of innocent people

#213

Post by kafkaesq »

spacehome wrote: post #208
kafkaesq wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

American Revolutionary War Which led to the perpetuation of slavery for another 90 years (which the British were in the process of abolishing throughout their holdings), among other "issues."

Wut? The American Revolutionary War resolved the conflict between the two parties rather satisfactorily. I did not claim that it ended all violence.

Could you provide some notable examples where violence has resolved issues in the long term and did not lead to more issues/violence?

Was the original question. The point is that while it solved one conflict, it deferred and prolonged another (quite major) one -- which might well had been resolved had the colonies not seceded from the Crown.

Re: The NSA’s machine learning algorithm may be killing thousands of innocent people

#214

Post by redblacktree »

kafkaesq wrote: post #213
spacehome wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wut? The American Revolutionary War resolved the conflict between the two parties rather satisfactorily. I did not claim that it ended all violence.

Could you provide some notable examples where violence has resolved issues in the long term and did not lead to more issues/violence? Was the original question. The point is that while it solved one conflict, it deferred and prolonged another (quite major) one -- which might well had been resolved had the colonies not seceded from the Crown.

Sure, and with the vague definition of "issues," you can move the goalposts all day long.

Re: The NSA’s machine learning algorithm may be killing thousands of innocent people

#215

Post by redblacktree »

ionised wrote: post #173
rayiner wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see why pacifism is "more evolved." Violence is one of the most fundamental interactions between organisms, right up there with eating and sexual reproduction. Is eating "primitive?" Are you looking forward to a future where humans "evolve" out of needing to eat? Throughout history, prosperous and successful societies have been built on the back of military power (Egypt, Rome, Great Britain).

> Are you looking forward to a future where humans "evolve" out of needing to eat? Personally, yes. Taking time out to eat so I don't die takes me away from other things I was enjoying doing. I enjoy the taste of many foods, but not as much as I was enjoying the thing I was likely doing before it.

I am grateful for the processes of cooking and cleaning and other daily maintenance in my life. I'm reminded of a zen proverb: "Before enlightenment, you chop wood and carry water. After enlightenment, you chop wood and carry water."

Re: The NSA’s machine learning algorithm may be killing thousands of innocent people

#216

Post by kafkaesq »

redblacktree wrote: post #214
kafkaesq wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you provide some notable examples where violence has resolved issues in the long term and did not lead to more issues/violence? Was the original question. The point is that while it solved one conflict, it deferred and prolonged another (quite major) one -- which might well had been resolved had the colonies not seceded from the Crown.

Sure, and with the vague definition of "issues," you can move the goalposts all day long.

90 years of slavery that very likely would have been severely restricted in 1807 and abolished outright in 1833 (based on certain major events relating to slavery in the British empire, which I'm sure you're aware of) might sound "vague" to you, but most likely it wasn't to those affected.

Re: The NSA’s machine learning algorithm may be killing thousands of innocent people

#217

Post by rdancer »

gremlinsinc wrote: post #212
MichaelBurge wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rand Paul would. Bernie Sanders might.

Bernie definitely would, except -- I'm not too sure JFK wasn't an inside job w/ the CIA - I wouldn't put assinating a president past the NSA, heck I wouldn't put anything past them, the more I read--the more I feel like I woke up in 1984, and we're already in some post-apocalyptic world where Big brother controls everything but we just don't know it (yet).

JFK got done in because Lyndon Johnson was a much more palatable president. If the vice president is not on their side, they'd have to keep killing people down the line of succession until they got to somebody who was. After the vice president: Speaker of the House (currently Paul Ryan) > President pro tempore of the Senate (currently Orrin Hatch) > long line of officials serving at the pleasure of the president.

Re: The NSA’s machine learning algorithm may be killing thousands of innocent people

#218

Post by conceit »

spacehome wrote: post #187
alanwatts wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you provide some notable examples where violence has resolved issues in the long term and did not lead to more issues/violence? This thread is in relation to the religious wars currently going on in the middle east. The Jews, Christians, and Muslims have been trying to use violence to resolve their issues in the middle east for thousands of years now to no avail.

A few notable ones off the top of my head: WW2 American Revolutionary War The Roman-Carthaginian wars Genocide of the Ainu in Japan Genocide of the Neanderthals by Homo Sapiens in Europe (Maybe; it's theorized at least) The Gombe Chimpanzee War I'm sure I can come up with more if you like. The primary reason Jews, Christians, and Muslims are having trouble solving their problems using violence is that they're not usi…

They prosper(ed) rather well despite these minor problems. If that means to you they were using enough violence and a lot at that, I'd agree.

Re: The NSA’s machine learning algorithm may be killing thousands of innocent people

#219

Post by spacehome »

kafkaesq wrote: post #213
spacehome wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wut? The American Revolutionary War resolved the conflict between the two parties rather satisfactorily. I did not claim that it ended all violence.

Could you provide some notable examples where violence has resolved issues in the long term and did not lead to more issues/violence? Was the original question. The point is that while it solved one conflict, it deferred and prolonged another (quite major) one -- which might well had been resolved had the colonies not seceded from the Crown.

There were also a lot of other conflicts on that list with a promise I could provide more. OK, how about this:

The execution of John Wayne Gacy.

Re: The NSA’s machine learning algorithm may be killing thousands of innocent people

#220

Post by _nedR »

daniel-levin wrote: post #138
agd wrote: post #13

Big data analysis + mass surveillance is a frightening prospect. Of course you can train software to look for 'terrorists', but you could also train it to look for: - whistleblowers - minority groups (e.g. gay people, particular religious beliefs, political affiliation) - political dissidents - journalists whose behaviour changes - personal vulnerabilities (affairs, mental health issues etc) Think what authoritarian…

Israel allegedly identifies homosexual Palestinians based on mass surveillance data and exploits them for it [1, 2] [1] http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.617280 [2] http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/gay-palestinians-are-being-bl...

Wow. To add on top of the stigma of being gay in a homophobic culture, now they're going to be targeted as potential traitors/informants too. That's just... wow.
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