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Twitter's only black engineer in leadership quits

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Re: Twitter's only black engineer in leadership quits

#211

Post by Nadya »

incrediblebob wrote: post #191
Nadya wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you're essentially where I stand then. :P I consider myself the "Milo" of transexuals and have a large disconnect with most people who consider themselves part of the "LGBT Movement". Many of which are right up there with PC culture (e.g telling me I can't use the word "tranny", even when referring to myself? Fuck off.) While I do see the problem and in many places agree - I do not agree with the proposed methods…

Please keep in mind, Milo's writing is tongue in cheek. It's generally agreed upon that Milo's writing is parody (ref: https://twitter.com/search?f=tweets&vertical=default&q=twosc... ) . He's parodying Men's rights activists. He is like the Onion but harder to distinguish.

That was him during an interview, not writing. Furthermore it's important to distinguish his satire from his viewpoints.

Of course the comment is a tad tongue-in-cheek. It is speaking more that he is against much of the LGBT movement in which he should be a part of. Falling under the "G" and by not conforming to the widely held beliefs he is homophobic. I fall under the "T" but I'm disgusted with half of what the LGBT movement pushes for and have on many occasions been called a transphobe. Especially in regards to my usage of "tranny", as I stated.

A bit tongue-in-cheek myself: If I weren't a transexual I'd be one of the largest transphobes I know. Largely because I refuse to let people police my speech.

Re: Twitter's only black engineer in leadership quits

#212

Post by [deleted] »

aeflash wrote: post #204
steven2012 wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless I misread it, I didn't read a single thing that will help a black person today get hired.

It likely will. You revealed an unconscious bias you have. You think that focusing on diversity is lowering the hiring bar. This is a fundamentally biased position -- it assumes minorities are worse tech workers. You're the top comment on a popular HN thread, many people are rebutting you, and are getting linked from many external sources. All it takes is one hiring manager to read this thread, realize their unconsci…

[deleted]

Re: Twitter's only black engineer in leadership quits

#213

Post by steven2012 »

Geekette wrote: post #206
steven2012 wrote: post #65

I've been working for over 20 years in tech at 10+ different companies around the Valley, and I can count on 1 hand the number of direct coworkers that were black, and on 2 hands the number of coworkers that I indirectly worked with that were black. I don't believe this is due to any sort of racism, but rather due to the education system in general. Trying to solve the diversity issue at the hiring end, when the numb…

* "over 20 years in tech ... I can count on 1 hand the number of direct coworkers that were black ... I don't believe this is due to any sort of racism, but rather due to the education system in general. ... The only way you will hit higher-than-normal diversity numbers is to reduce hiring standards, which is wrong. * WOW. Haven't time to unpack all that is wrong with your response but mainly: Black people in the US…

Where did I state that "they" must all be poor and in adequate schools?

I agree there is a diversity problem, and my proposed solution is to increase investment in education in disadvantaged areas. And somehow I'm vilified as a closet, biased racist. It's hilarious.

It's responses like this that make any discussion on increasing diversity completely impossible and futile.

Re: Twitter's only black engineer in leadership quits

#214

Post by wpietri »

[deleted] wrote: post #212
aeflash wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It likely will. You revealed an unconscious bias you have. You think that focusing on diversity is lowering the hiring bar. This is a fundamentally biased position -- it assumes minorities are worse tech workers. You're the top comment on a popular HN thread, many people are rebutting you, and are getting linked from many external sources. All it takes is one hiring manager to read this thread, realize their unconsci…

[deleted]

Your ability to repeat your talking points is impressive. But you demonstrate zero engagement with any other views, zero understanding of the lived reality of minorities in tech, and zero understanding of the decades of research and discussion around racism and employment.

The charitable assumption is that's accidental. There's no reason white people end up knowing about this stuff automatically. I sure didn't. But at some level of repetition and entrenched defense of an apparently naive position, it gets pretty hard to say, "Oh Steven2012 just doesn't know."

It begins to look like you don't want to know. Which is also fine, really, as long as you own that and move along in spite of it. Maybe try that? It seems better than being the poster boy for statements like "I don't read HN often. But it can be instructive. You get to read unfiltered sentiment from ppl who don't realize they're misogynist/racist."

Re: Twitter's only black engineer in leadership quits

#215

Post by steven2012 »

wpietri wrote: post #214
[deleted] wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

Your ability to repeat your talking points is impressive. But you demonstrate zero engagement with any other views, zero understanding of the lived reality of minorities in tech, and zero understanding of the decades of research and discussion around racism and employment. The charitable assumption is that's accidental. There's no reason white people end up knowing about this stuff automatically. I sure didn't. But a…

Actually what is even more remarkable is your ability to smugly pooh pooh everyone's ideas and point out how everyone is a closet racist, despite their good intentions.

What, pray tell, is your idea to increase diversity, and what have you personally done to increase diversity?

Re: Twitter's only black engineer in leadership quits

#216

Post by Lawtonfogle »

bduerst wrote: post #210
Lawtonfogle wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So that is 4.8 to 7.1 percent which can be explained by any of the following: - Any attributes not accounted for in part or in full. (Of which there are quite a lot.) - Past sexism which impacts income in the modern day. (Sexism 30 years ago would have impacted starting incomes of people, which would have reflected up til today because one's initial compensation greatly impacts future compensation through many differ…

Those variables you listed account for 65.1 and 76.4 percent of raw gender wage gap [1]. The real 4.8 to 7.1 percent wage gap is what is left over after removing factors, and is attributed to gender. You first claimed that there is no gender wage gap, and in the face of the evidence you're creating hypotheticals to say it's not a true gender wage gap (i.e. no true scotsman). Do you know what confirmation bias is? [1]…

I'm saying those aren't accounted for, and as such the gender wage gap (which is taken to mean the differences in wages caused by modern day sexism, and not just a difference in the pay of the average man vs. the average woman ignoring all factors) does not exist.

>Do you know what confirmation bias is?

Thinking that because a small list of factors account for ~70% of the gap that the rest of it must be sexism.

Re: Twitter's only black engineer in leadership quits

#217

Post by wpietri »

steven2012 wrote: post #215
wpietri wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your ability to repeat your talking points is impressive. But you demonstrate zero engagement with any other views, zero understanding of the lived reality of minorities in tech, and zero understanding of the decades of research and discussion around racism and employment. The charitable assumption is that's accidental. There's no reason white people end up knowing about this stuff automatically. I sure didn't. But a…

Actually what is even more remarkable is your ability to smugly pooh pooh everyone's ideas and point out how everyone is a closet racist, despite their good intentions. What, pray tell, is your idea to increase diversity, and what have you personally done to increase diversity?

Ah, yes, let's turn this around. No matter that you haven't addressed any of the criticisms of your comments. No matter that when you get replies you don't like, you just delete what you wrote rather than owning your words and working through your mistakes. (Let me know if you'd like a copy; I saved it for you.) No matter that I encouraged your one actual idea, which was to maybe start volunteering. No matter that you don't know anything about the research on or the history of this topic, yet feel qualified to judge other people. Let's do it.

My idea? I don't need to have "my idea" to increase diversity. Other people have already had plenty of ideas. Better, they have discussed, researched, and critiqued those ideas. As a white guy, I'm unlikely to have any particularly good ideas, because I have little direct experience of the problem I'm trying to solve. I also try not to have ideas on products to create for the Chinese market, better approaches to goat herding, or the particle makeup of dark matter. I know I'm not an expert, so I'm not going to clutter the discussion talking like I am.

And what am I actually doing? A fair number of things, but the most important of them is to listen. I talk with actual people about their actual experiences. Via RSS and Twitter, I follow a lot of people who think and write about this stuff. I read studies on the topic. I read about America's incredibly fucked-up racial history, and about how we're still dealing with the effects of that today. I listen to actual minorities in tech about their actual experiences. And ones outside of tech, too.

I encourage you to try it. Because then you'd know that racial bias is widespread in the US despite "good intentions" [1]. You'd know that outbursts like this are a symptom of white fragility [2]. You'd know about the white savior complex, where a white person decides the only solution to racism is for them to go share their time and wisdom with those poor unfortunates, ignoring the structural issues that created the situation.

And then, once you get past the Racism 101 stuff, maybe you could help me and others who would like HN and the tech industry to have discussions on this that aren't somewhere on the horrific/remedial end of the spectrum. But take your time with the listening. It took me maybe 3 or 4 years of work. The hard part wasn't the learning, it was the unlearning of what I thought I knew. [3]

[1] http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/blog/implicit-test/

[2] http://www.alternet.org/culture/why-white-people-freak-out-w...

[3] http://bengtwendel.com/your-teacup-is-full-empty-your-cup/

Re: Twitter's only black engineer in leadership quits

#218

Post by nzoschke »

sokoloff wrote: post #181
nzoschke wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can shift your notions of "qualified". You can hire junior engineers and mentor and train them to be successful. Then you can proactively advertise your positions to programs and organizations that have more minority participation. Of course this takes more work for you, the hiring manager, in sourcing and on boarding. But there should be a burden on every hiring manager to correct the systemic diversity problems…

"Qualified" will always mean "can make a computer do things we need done" and that's not negotiable. We do hire at all experience levels and several of our successful squad leads are original college hires (having only worked with us), so we have some demonstrated track record of mentoring and retention. Even in college recruiting (where I'd expect the greatest diversity of candidates), I can't recall any recent blac…

Be careful with the term "Cinderella program".

My direct experience here is working with Hackbright Academy to meet more women than I was getting through the standard job application channels.

Hackbright works attracts women from all backgrounds, science but no computer science, college drop outs, and junior CS. It teaches practical programming skills in the 3 months class, then helps connect the women to companies.

The program works. Smart women can learn programming and be successful at any subsequent job in the industry with adequate time, mentorship and training.

This is of course true for people of all genders, race and college background.

There are many similar programs that cater to diverse hiring pipelines. Dev Bootcamp for first time web developers, Jopwell for black, latino, hispanic and native american candidates.

But all these still depend on a hiring manager valuing mentorship over "pre-qualified".

Of all the things in my career, I am most proud of helping engineers be successful at tasks that they weren't "qualified" to do. This has been hiring junior candidates for roles beyond their current experience (with clear discussions on both sides about how it will be challenging), and rotating and promoting engineers into new roles and responsibilities.

Re: Twitter's only black engineer in leadership quits

#219

Post by bduerst »

Lawtonfogle wrote: post #216
bduerst wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those variables you listed account for 65.1 and 76.4 percent of raw gender wage gap [1]. The real 4.8 to 7.1 percent wage gap is what is left over after removing factors, and is attributed to gender. You first claimed that there is no gender wage gap, and in the face of the evidence you're creating hypotheticals to say it's not a true gender wage gap (i.e. no true scotsman). Do you know what confirmation bias is? [1]…

I'm saying those aren't accounted for, and as such the gender wage gap (which is taken to mean the differences in wages caused by modern day sexism, and not just a difference in the pay of the average man vs. the average woman ignoring all factors) does not exist. >Do you know what confirmation bias is? Thinking that because a small list of factors account for ~70% of the gap that the rest of it must be sexism.

Read the research - they are accounted for.

CONSAD, Pew, and the U.S. Dept. of Labor have provided strong statistical evidence from research that the 4.5-7 percent gender wage gap exists. Your fixation on accounted-for factors and unwillingness to accept the facts is textbook confirmation bias.

Re: Twitter's only black engineer in leadership quits

#220

Post by mazerackham »

wpietri wrote: post #217
steven2012 wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually what is even more remarkable is your ability to smugly pooh pooh everyone's ideas and point out how everyone is a closet racist, despite their good intentions. What, pray tell, is your idea to increase diversity, and what have you personally done to increase diversity?

Ah, yes, let's turn this around. No matter that you haven't addressed any of the criticisms of your comments. No matter that when you get replies you don't like, you just delete what you wrote rather than owning your words and working through your mistakes. (Let me know if you'd like a copy; I saved it for you.) No matter that I encouraged your one actual idea, which was to maybe start volunteering. No matter that yo…

Hey wpietri, thanks for writing this comment. Sometimes, I read through threads like these, and see a lot of vocal white people saying shit that makes me lose hope for the future. White people are in charge in this country, and any change will require them to back it. Reading this helps undo some of that despair, and gives me some hope for the future.

Thank you, and keep being exactly what minorities need right now.

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