What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech • Hacker News Board

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#211

Post by Rusky » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 1:34 AM UTC

rewqfdsa wrote: post #195

hkmurakami wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our society has agreed that if any specific subset of the population is being biased against its wishes to pursue a path, then this is an injustice that shall be remedied. Distinctions include but are not limited to race, gender, socioeconomic background or current status, geographic origin, sexual orientation, and preexisting medical conditions. It is an implied social contract that forms the foundation of our moder…

> against its wishes That's the bone of contention here. Nobody is keeping women out of computer science; they're largely just preferring not to enter the field. The point of the article, echoed by many commentators over the past few years, is that it's a "problem" that women are largely staying out of computer science. If you believe in the blank slate theory of human nature, of course it's a problem, because under…

Innate differences between genders may play a part, but the idea that "women tend to be less interested" is not the only possible innate difference. What's to say the innate difference in play here isn't "men tend to be more hostile to women joining their space"?

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#212

Post by rewqfdsa » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 1:37 AM UTC

j2kun wrote: post #210

rewqfdsa wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> against its wishes That's the bone of contention here. Nobody is keeping women out of computer science; they're largely just preferring not to enter the field. The point of the article, echoed by many commentators over the past few years, is that it's a "problem" that women are largely staying out of computer science. If you believe in the blank slate theory of human nature, of course it's a problem, because under…

> Nobody is keeping women out of computer science; they're largely just preferring not to enter the field. Ted is the new kid at school, and he wants to make friends. At recess he approaches a group of smiling, laughing boys to introduce himself. But as he nears the group they get quiet. Ted says hi and his name, and mentions he's new and wants to know if they play "tag" here. The boys reply, "we don't play tag, we p…

If I understand your parable correctly, you're suggesting that men deliberately mock and reject women trying to enter the field. In my experience, nothing could be further from the truth. I have never, not once, witnessed the behavior you describe. I've seen nothing but welcoming behavior toward everyone who wants to learn software.

Even among proponents of the systemic discrimination theory, the consensus these days seems to be that bias must be subconscious, since overt bias is practically extinct in the wild.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#213

Post by wutbrodo » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 1:38 AM UTC

rewqfdsa wrote: post #209

pcl wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's an economic rationale for diversity in hiring: Your project's total addressable market probably includes a diverse population of people. Meanwhile, the decisions in your project are made by the folks involved in it -- maybe some PMs, hopefully some UX and design engineers, and probably some programmers. I believe that our opinions are informed in part by our environment -- as someone living in California, I co…

A diversity of technical perspectives can be helpful, but there's no reason to suppose that 1) gender diversity correlates to a diversity of technical perspectives, or that 2) to achieve a diversity of technical perspectives, we need to force the demographics of programmers to match that of the population. If you want to increase diversity of thought, you'd be better off recruiting from schools other than Stanford an…

Seriously, with even a cursory amount of thought (which is far more rigor than proponents of diversity tend to give policy proposals) it's clear that much of the ideas coming out of tech these days caters to the problems of young urban fairly affluent users, which is in large part due to the tendency to want to solve problems that you're familiar with (and to be fair, the fact that it's harder to monetize low income users). Diversity of perspective across class lines makes way more sense than just assuming that more women of the same social and educational background will magically open up an appreciably wider set of technical perspectives.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#214

Post by pkinsky » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 1:39 AM UTC

hkmurakami wrote: post #194

omonra wrote: post #178

I don't get something. There seems to always has been a problem of diversity in tech. Yet US has done just ok with males (white and asian) doing this stuff. Ie better than anybody else in the world. Why is this a problem (something the writer - who is a literature professor, by the way) considers a given? Is there any proof that increased diversity has any effect (except employment opportunities for the otherwise und…

Our society has agreed that if any specific subset of the population is being biased against its wishes to pursue a path, then this is an injustice that shall be remedied. Distinctions include but are not limited to race, gender, socioeconomic background or current status, geographic origin, sexual orientation, and preexisting medical conditions. It is an implied social contract that forms the foundation of our moder…

The majority of college students are female. Most prisoners are male. Most homeless people are male. If we take it as a given that any group being under- or overrepresented in some category is a violation of the social contract, maybe we should start by fixing these glaring injustices.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#215

Post by rewqfdsa » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 1:41 AM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #153

rewqfdsa wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think sharing culture can create an esprit de corps, improving morale and group cohesion, especially in times of crisis.

That's an argument that gets you a team of people who all like the same video games and all pick which beer to drink by maximizing IBUs. There's a point at which can safely say that this kind of studiously groomed, exclusionary "cohesion" is doing more harm than good. I mean, there's obviously that point: if you refused to hire someone because they were a woman, you'd get sued; if you refused to hire someone because…

Look at the other extreme: the idea that I might be discouraged (or disallowed) from bonding with my coworkers over shared interests sounds dystopian.

You might argue that workplaces shouldn't endorse one particular subculture over another: that's fine. But unless you take stern measures to ban fraternization, you're going to get coworkers forming friendships based on shared interests, and we're lying to ourselves if we think that interests of software people tend not to cluster around what we think of as "geek" culture.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#216

Post by rewqfdsa » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 1:42 AM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #202

rewqfdsa wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand the connection between beer and nerd culture --- or masculine culture, actually, since plenty of women I know love beer.

I wasn't trying to be gender-specific with my example, just showing how something you can do as a manager to build culture can exclude and alienate people. (Though: I do think beer drinking trends masculine.)

Right: nobody bonds over building shareholder value. They bond over shared interests. But there are no _universal_ interests, so team-building is a quandary. I think the best you can do is rotate events and make sure most people are interested most of the time.

Maybe after the beer offsite, you can visit a winery, or a famous local coffee house, and then a museum.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#217

Post by dclowd9901 » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 1:44 AM UTC

jleyank wrote: post #182

dclowd9901 wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> things which definitely have nothing to do with STEM fields (sci-fi and star wars) I respectfully disagree wholeheartedly. Many enter these industries because of their love for sci-fi. You'd be hard-pressed to find a Space X or NASA employee who wouldn't attribute at least some of their aspiration to the creations of Carl Sagan or Gene Rodenberry.

True but incomplete. Some of us got interested in scientific fields because we were interested in science (not science fiction). For me, it was a good teacher at a critical time in HS. Not a role model, as I did not and really do not wish to be a teacher. But somebody who opened a door into something that excited me.

Could you square that circle for me where you are interested in science, but not science fiction? I'm not talking about science fantasy, but fiction rooted in science and the ramifications of scientific development.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#218

Post by Rusky » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 1:47 AM UTC

gaius wrote: post #47

Mithaldu wrote: post #6

So the salient point to me seem to be: Girls are put off by how computer culture styles itself in nerdy ways. Ok, i can kind of get that. On the other hand, i don't like it much because she seems to be saying "hiding positive expressions about things you like could be helpful". I'm all for increasing diversity, but that should happen by bringing in more things and widening horizons. If that means "Sex and the City",…

i don't like it much because she seems to be saying "hiding positive expressions about things you like could be helpful" Quite. The person who happens to like sci-fi isn't motivated by excluding anyone; they like it because they like it and will share their enthusiasm with anyone. Has that person intentionally done something wrong? And if not why should they be censured for it? That is the elephant in the corner of t…

It's not so much the fault of any individuals, as it is just a difficult situation overall. Ideally there would be both sci-fi enthusiasts as well as enthusiasts of other topics, so that more people can find common interests.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#219

Post by paulddraper » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 1:48 AM UTC

pkinsky wrote: post #214

hkmurakami wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our society has agreed that if any specific subset of the population is being biased against its wishes to pursue a path, then this is an injustice that shall be remedied. Distinctions include but are not limited to race, gender, socioeconomic background or current status, geographic origin, sexual orientation, and preexisting medical conditions. It is an implied social contract that forms the foundation of our moder…

The majority of college students are female. Most prisoners are male. Most homeless people are male. If we take it as a given that any group being under- or overrepresented in some category is a violation of the social contract, maybe we should start by fixing these glaring injustices.

But those are different. Those favor females.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#220

Post by Myrmornis » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 1:52 AM UTC

> Yet I wonder how many young men would choose to major in computer science if they suspected they might need to carry out their coding while sitting in a pink cubicle decorated with posters of “Sex and the City,” with copies of Vogue and Cosmo scattered around the lunchroom. In fact, Dr. Cheryan’s research shows that young men tend not to major in English for the same reasons women don’t pick computer science: They compare their notions of who they are to their stereotypes of English majors and decide they won’t fit in.

The thing is that computer science and english lit are not exchangeable. In fact, if computer science were done in pink cubicles adorned with the above-mentioned purportedly feminine accoutrements, men and women would still do computer science, because it would still be critical to technological advance and modern economies in a direct, and remunerated, way which English Lit is not.