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The Unemployable Programmer

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Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#201

Post by nordic_nomad »

vonmoltke wrote: post #168
mkozlows wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have friends who are devs and hiring managers (several of whom have no degrees, even) in many cities -- Detroit, Columbus, Portland, Chicago, SF -- and the same thing is true in all those places. If you live in a small town, I can believe that the opportunities are limited, but in basically any metro area of any size, it's a developers' market.

Well, I live in Dallas. I have been fishing in Dallas and Austin over the past several months and can't get any interviews. I would like to know where all these "desperate" companies are and what domains they are in.

Well the quick answer is JavaScript is needed everywhere.

I'd bone up on that, and learn angular inside and out as well as a couple of other JavaScript frameworks for good measure. That's what gets me hired as a C# developer in php, ruby, and java shops where I can then gradually show them I know UX, devops, and other little valuable things. The trick is that the hot thing in short supply will change this time next year and you'll need to keep a finger on the pulse of it and learn that if you're looking to job hunt.

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#202

Post by cgearhart »

strathmeyer wrote: post #142
mkozlows wrote: post #82

This is an absolutely baffling article. The job market for developers is not glutted by over-supply, it's one where marginally-qualified people get hired for salaries well above the national average because companies need SOMEONE to do the job. And virtually nowhere cares about degrees, especially for experienced devs. And having a single development job at a big company for a decade isn't some kind of career-killing…

What's baffling is people in denial blaming the victims. We admit it is our fault for thinking a Computer Science degree had any value. We weren't fooled, we were just dumb. But we still want to survive, that doesn't make us bad people just because we enjoy programming.

>...admit it is our fault for thinking a Computer Science degree had any value.

CS degrees do have value. But their value is not constant, and depends heavily on the domain and requirements for a particular job. The real confusion is thinking that a CS degree is supposed to merely provide job skills training. While you get some of that as part of the deal, that's not actually the purpose of a degree -- and it never was. In that light, it really shouldn't be surprising that a degree isn't always required to be successful.

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#203

Post by mike-cardwell »

gvb wrote: post #200
mike-cardwell wrote: post #66

I've spent the last 13/14 years writing Perl so I started getting worried a year or two back that I was making myself unemployable by not branching out. I've been doing a lot of front-end development since, learning JavaScript and NodeJS to a good level, familiarising myself with JavaScript frameworks like React and Angular and learning/launching a couple of simple sites using NodeJS/Express and Python/Django (two ot…

Nice web site, I really liked your comments in it. I've been writing this on and off for the past 6 years. Whenever something peaks my interest I write it up. s/peaks/piques/ Ref: http://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/pique

Oops. Thanks for pointing that out.

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#204

Post by nordic_nomad »

vonmoltke wrote: post #177
ScottWhigham wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that were true, it would mean that The Valley hires, on average, lower quality developers than non-Valley employers. Is that what you are suggesting?

I don't think it means "on average", since I do think the average quality of a dev is higher in the Valley is better than elsewhere. However, I am saying that getting hired as a marginal dev is easier in the Valley than elsewhere, since there are not enough warm bodies in that area and Valley companies only seem to be willing to reach outside the area for really good people.

There aren't nearly enough warm bodies everywhere else. But you need to figure out what the term warm body actually means in your area.

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#205

Post by [deleted] »

outworlder wrote: post #187
drzaiusapelord wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, sometimes people aren't aware that HN is its own little echo chamber. I was talking to a recruiter recently for a managerial job and somehow got onto the topic of hiring. I asked him what's the hardest jobs for him to fill right now. He told me he's dying for entry level .NET/ASP and Java developers. Corporations have built their castles on these technologies, not FOSS/Mobile and need staff. Degrees were an i…

> He told me he's dying for entry level .NET/ASP and Java developers Why does he need so many entry level programmers? > We talked about pay, and it wasn't terrible impressive Is the recruiter trying to staff a company with mostly entry-level programmers, paying low wages? I've seen plenty of companies like that, including those who used mostly trainees. Usually, the work environment was the crappiest possible, and w…

[deleted]

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#206

Post by devcis »

edw519 wrote: post #20

Here's the dirty little secret about "employability" you hardly ever read about in places like HN: It's not about you. It's about your user and what they accomplish with the tools you build for them. It doesn't matter who you are, what you know, what education you have, where you've worked before, what turns you on, or what you think is cool. It only matters what you can do for others. It's really that fucking simple…

Good advice. You as an experienced professional should always ask what pain points they are experiencing and have suggestions. Even if you don't know the answer for the pain-points you can at least learn something by asking the question.

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#207

Post by vonmoltke »

JoshTriplett wrote: post #171
mgkimsal wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Problem there is you can't just go get a security clearance - you have to be ... sponsored(?) - is that the word - by a company already. At least, that was my reading of the situation a few years back. I gave up applying to defense positions years ago because every one required existing security clearance. It's the defense industry version of "you have to have experience before we'll hire you to get the experience".

Interesting. Is there no way to pay the same fee a company would pay to apply for clearance for yourself?

Clearance requests must be accompanied by a justification, which basically means "needed to work on Project XYZ". You cannot get a clearance unless you actually need it to do work, and should not be cleared any higher than is necessary[1]. This leads to the chicken-and-egg situation with cleared positions: you need a clearance to work on these programs, but you can't get a clearance for the first time until asked to work on one of these programs.

[1] Some companies will try to put you through for higher clearances than you actually need right now in anticipation of future work, but they aren't supposed to.

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#209

Post by JamesBarney »

jcadam wrote: post #69

Hmm... I'm a 35 year old programmer and I work in Defense/Aerospace. If you think finding a good developer is hard, try finding a good developer who also holds a security clearance. If you're any good at all, you will always be employed and well compensated. The work can be dull, with Vogon-esque processes and procedures, but I have side projects to keep me sane :) Every couple of years (ok, at least every year) I'll…

I was under the impression pay for devs in the defense sector topped out at the 80-120k mark. Which is definitely good but very comparable to unimpressive mid-senior level devs at many development shops.

If you wouldn't mind, in your experience what is the general range of pay for development work in the defense sector?

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#210

Post by bengale »

jschwartzi wrote: post #140
fweespeech wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is an absolutely baffling article. The job market for developers is not glutted by over-supply, it's one where marginally-qualified people get hired for salaries well above the national average because companies need SOMEONE to do the job. And virtually nowhere cares about degrees, especially for experienced devs. I've had about 40-50% of places reject me due to a lack of degree. A couple even sent me hopeful…

I've been with teams who wouldn't hire anyone who couldn't finish a degree. It doesn't matter which kind, but they had to have proven they could do the degree.

That's a double edged sword I guess.

I chose my school and degree based around staying close to home to help with my disabled brother. It turned out to be a poor decision, academically that is, as the course combined software engineering students with business I.T and we weren't covering anything I didn't already know. I got a summer placement writing code and realised I was learning much more during that time, so when they asked if I wanted to stay on, I accepted.

It could be viewed as not being able to complete the degree, on the other hand would it have been a good choice to persevere with a bad decision just to prove I could? I'd be concerned with working with people who couldn't admit to making a mistake, then making the best of it. Or those who refused to see the grey areas.

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