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Why Should We Support the Idea of an Unconditional Basic Income?

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Re: Why Should We Support the Idea of an Unconditional Basic Income?

#201

Post by JoeAltmaier »

MCRed wrote: post #200
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's palpably not true. We all get roads, police, fire, regulated utilities. Absolutely nobody is trying to wean us from those. It takes a change in thinking to accept the basic income. I'm afraid a generation will have to grow old and die before it gains traction, because of the ingrained thinking that 'full employment' is a good or useful societal goal.

You mean the generation that remembers what the USSR was like? I'm not being flippant, I'm being serious. The entire leftist political agenda, including Basic Income is basic marxism and the arguments for it are the same ones we had in over a century ago. We've had a century of experimentation with it, from Fascism in germany ("to protect our farmers") to communism in Russia to socialism in the UK to all manner of va…

We can paint it with the socialism brush, and write it off. Or we can recognize that today is a very different economic situation from, well, pretty much any time in history. We've got automation, and technology, and a burgeoning unemployed and unemployable population of non-technologists. We can try to prop up the quaint systems of the past (full employment, work or starve). Or we can change our system to one that is kinder, economical, and raises the standard of living for everybody.

As I said, I believe folks will have to grow old and die. Until then, we'll hear only FUD stories and scare tactics.

Re: Why Should We Support the Idea of an Unconditional Basic Income?

#202

Post by ConfuciusSay »

MCRed wrote: post #131
SwellJoe wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Ever heard of minimum wage? Yeah, that one did not work as expected either (and created massive unemployment when the threshold was set too high as well)." Citation needed. Your assertions do not match my understanding of the facts about the result of the minimum wage. (Though I would have agreed with you ten years ago, a better understanding of it has altered my opinion significantly.)

When you raise the minimum wage, you don't change any of the other aspects of the business affected by it. So, say you have 15 employees making $10 an hour to keep your company afloat. (Just to keep things simple ,this is about the logic of it.) Now the minimum wage goes up to $15. What are you going to do? You would be losing money with a %50 increase in your costs. Most likely what you will do is lay off 5 employee…

Tell me, there's been various minimum wage enacted in the U.S. since the 1930's. If a minimum wage is so bad for the economy, wow come during the last ~80 years, the U.S. has been the world's foremost leading economic engine?

How come the minimum wage has been raised many times throughout history, and somehow business keeps trucking along?

Nobody is suggesting raising the minimum wage to $100/hour, that's a false argument.

The market is full of distortions. Indeed the entire creation of the ideology of capitalism was about how best to regulate and harness the powerful market forces.

Re: Why Should We Support the Idea of an Unconditional Basic Income?

#203

Post by selimthegrim »

kamaal wrote: post #194
selimthegrim wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What percentage of government revenue and GDP is being lost to Mandal, etc, versus the coal scam, the power scam in Delhi that Kejriwal tried to expose, the cell spectrum scam, etc, freebies to Reliance and Ambani?

Like I mentioned above, the root of corruption is lack of opportunities. If there are things in abundance, the desperation that drives people to resort to corruption reduces.

You can't seriously tell me Ambani and Raja were lacking in opportunities.

Re: Why Should We Support the Idea of an Unconditional Basic Income?

#204

Post by conanbatt »

jbb555 wrote: post #30

Give me $1000 a month and I'd be able to retire. I wouldn't be rich but with savings and so on I'd be able to manage. So it would cost perhaps $30000 more than that in lost income taxes too as well as lost productivity. I imagine very many people would do this. The whole whole idea is stupid.

So you want it or you don't?

Also if you make 1000 a month now, you probably dont pay much taxes.

Re: Why Should We Support the Idea of an Unconditional Basic Income?

#205

Post by conanbatt »

jmnicolas wrote: post #47

In principle I like the idea, but : - the System (corporations / politicians) will never allow it - we're on a planet with limited resources and all economic theories fail to acknowledge that

The basis of economics is to study unlimited needs with limited resources, so all economic theories take that into account.

Re: Why Should We Support the Idea of an Unconditional Basic Income?

#206

Post by conanbatt »

cturner wrote: post #50

"In Russia, they thought everyone should have bread. That was a decision made by those in power, and they then tried to make that happen, whether everyone wanted bread or not. This did not work so well, and there were shortages." So they produced bread, but then there were shortages? This doesn't make sense. There is something that we could call "The Central-Planner's Dilemma". People need shoes. Hence, there are peo…

I agree that the Russia bread story makes no sense. There's actually not enough bread in either Capitalist America either, since people also starve.

Re: Why Should We Support the Idea of an Unconditional Basic Income?

#207

Post by kamaal »

selimthegrim wrote: post #203
kamaal wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like I mentioned above, the root of corruption is lack of opportunities. If there are things in abundance, the desperation that drives people to resort to corruption reduces.

You can't seriously tell me Ambani and Raja were lacking in opportunities.

Do you seriously think Raja is the only guy who got all the money? Or when a traffic constable demands bribe, do you think they keep all the money for themselves. That kind of money goes into every one's pocket.

How do you think political parties can distribute free laptops and televisions. What do you have to say of those people who literally brave a stampede for these freebies, free liquor and food.

I hope this was as simple as a few people greedy people stealing all the money, it would all end by just putting them in prison. In reality this is a more serious and deep problem.

Re: Why Should We Support the Idea of an Unconditional Basic Income?

#208

Post by orlandob »

At some point, intelligent members of society (read: YOU PEOPLE) will realize that there is no such thing as zero-sum fiat monetary system. You don't need to tax someone for the government to create a new spending program. There is no scarcity in USD (its fiat money, there's infinite supply). When there are economic resources untapped, the ~50% unemployed & underemployed, the Government MUST step in and provide stimulus. The multiplier on the economy has been well studied and would benefit society greatly.

IN FIAT MONEY SYSTEMS (USD, CAD, JPY, AUD, CHF, etc.) FEDERAL DEBT IS PUBLIC INCOME. FEDERAL SURPLUS IS PUBLIC DEBT.

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