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Why do people waste so much time at work?

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Why do people waste so much time at work?

#201

Post by sillygoose »

rorykoehler wrote: post #99
rayiner wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Every time there is any thread about anything remotely socially progressive you are there espousing your highly conservative viewpoint. I don't think it's a liberal versus conservative issue so much as an individualist versus collectivist issue. I think social conservatives, who have a predisposition towards thinking of communities in terms of reciprocal social obligations, have a role to play yet in pushing forwar…

Everyone has a role to play. I wouldn't think it healthy to ignore or disregard certain view points out of hand just because they are different to mine. That is not the point, rather it is important to base discussion in critical thought and not purely emotional reaction (though this has some value in itself too).

> I wouldn't think it healthy to ignore or disregard certain view points out of hand just because they are different to mine.

But that's exactly what you've done with my viewpoint. You accused me of being ego-centric. Now it's my turn to call you a hypocrite.

Re: Why do people waste so much time at work?

#202

Post by S4M »

ams6110 wrote: post #189
toolz wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one seems to be suggesting taking work away from people that want it, rather, it's to alleviate people from working who don't want it. If you want to work 80 hour weeks to drive a car that can go faster than you'll ever legally be able to push it and live in a house so large you only use a quarter of the living space regularly. Go for it. As for me, I'd rather have my basics met, so I could spend more time doing t…

So what you are saying is, you want other people to fund your "basics" so you can go camping and do other stuff you enjoy. Wow, nice for you.

He never said he wanted other people to fund his basics. He just wants to work little for a little salary and lots of free time.

Re: Why do people waste so much time at work?

#203

Post by AndrewKemendo »

juliangregorian wrote: post #175
AndrewKemendo wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not the OP but your assumption is that 1. That "investment" mechanism will hold up forever and 2. That you don't put that money in the system at the wrong time assuming it is a random walk.

Well, that's pretty much how ETFs work. I don't quite understand what you mean about a random walk, though.

You're missing the point. Any investment, ETFs or otherwise, work, when the market is going up or sideways.

It falls apart if you needed money in - oh say 2008 or 2009. Or at any of the other points in time when things were shit.

It also falls apart 200 years from now - so it's not like it's a law that this is a system that will remain in place.

Re: Why do people waste so much time at work?

#204

Post by [deleted] »

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #203
juliangregorian wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, that's pretty much how ETFs work. I don't quite understand what you mean about a random walk, though.

You're missing the point. Any investment, ETFs or otherwise, work, when the market is going up or sideways. It falls apart if you needed money in - oh say 2008 or 2009. Or at any of the other points in time when things were shit. It also falls apart 200 years from now - so it's not like it's a law that this is a system that will remain in place.

[deleted]

Re: Why do people waste so much time at work?

#205

Post by Lawtonfogle »

pinaceae wrote: post #188
Lawtonfogle wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you paying hourly or salary? If salary, you are paying for what should be able to be done in 40 hours a week, but if it takes 45, you expect it to still be done, no? So if one can get it done is 35, why do you expect 5 more hours to given free?

No, I pay for 40h of your attention. for things that don't fit into 40h there is either (paid) overtime or hiring, depending on frequency.

So you don't hire exempt employees?

Re: Why do people waste so much time at work?

#206

Post by juliangregorian »

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #203
juliangregorian wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, that's pretty much how ETFs work. I don't quite understand what you mean about a random walk, though.

You're missing the point. Any investment, ETFs or otherwise, work, when the market is going up or sideways. It falls apart if you needed money in - oh say 2008 or 2009. Or at any of the other points in time when things were shit. It also falls apart 200 years from now - so it's not like it's a law that this is a system that will remain in place.

You're being rather argumentative, don't you think? Did you have something worth elaborating with the bit about the random walk? I would still be curious to know.

Re: Why do people waste so much time at work?

#207

Post by icebraining »

sillygoose wrote: post #182
icebraining wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

nothing of value is actually free, because otherwise it wouldn't have value. That's not how it actually works; price is only bounded by the value is brings, not proportional to it. For example, air is literally indispensable to life, but good luck selling it. things can't just be handed out for free, because the things themselves are not actually free. Sure they can; they've always have! Roads, cops, healthcare, educ…

> That's not how it actually works; price is only bounded by the value is brings, not proportional to it Price can be whatever the hell someone feels like asking for something, which already invalidates your claim. I can ask for $500k for a bucket of shit, but you probably wouldn't be willing to pay it. But there's a set price already, staring you in the face, making your claim look silly. Now what you might be getti…

Direct quote from your post: "things can't just be handed out for free"

Strawman?

Re: Why do people waste so much time at work?

#208

Post by sitkack »

justincormack wrote: post #25
bgilroy26 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Communication about what needs doing i.e. Lack of leadership

Partly. But there is usually no method of discovery either. In a software company there is an issue tracker and you can just go and fix bugs if nothing else, that doesnt exist in a traditional company.

It isn't just the ability to see what needs to be done, or the desire to put in extra effort or risk. When the individual sees no additional benefit for the risk they will not partake in the activity. It is precisely because the worker isn't compensated for working harder or more efficiently that they don't.

I have worked on plenty of projects that are time critical where compensation scales with the quality of the output. Think a theater performance or catered event. Time on clock matters, but completing the project faster and with a higher quality benefits ALL parties involved via profit sharing. The owners of capital want to pay based on time because they want a higher payout.

Re: Why do people waste so much time at work?

#209

Post by lsaferite »

meztez wrote: post #170
lsaferite wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd suggest replacing an income tax with a sales tax though. One 'punishes' earning, the other 'punishes' spending. Additionally you simplify enforcement by narrowing the collection points considerably. Talk about simple, you don't ever files taxes as an individual. That mixed with basic income is a good plan from my non-economist POV. I've sure someone far smarter that I can explain why I'm amazingly naïve.

Undeclared sales

That's already an issue though. With just a sales tax then you cut individual tax evasion out of the mix and allow the tax authorities to focus on tax evasion at the business level. Ignoring any arguments about the tax revenue difference between income + sales vs. sales only, I would think you could ensure much higher compliance if you only had to enforce at the business level with the added benefit of less bureaucracy.

Re: Why do people waste so much time at work?

#210

Post by lsaferite »

humanrebar wrote: post #158
lsaferite wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd suggest replacing an income tax with a sales tax though. One 'punishes' earning, the other 'punishes' spending. Additionally you simplify enforcement by narrowing the collection points considerably. Talk about simple, you don't ever files taxes as an individual. That mixed with basic income is a good plan from my non-economist POV. I've sure someone far smarter that I can explain why I'm amazingly naïve.

> I've sure someone far smarter that I can explain why I'm amazingly naïve. I actually like your plan a lot, but it's worth knowing the weak points of any plan. > Additionally you simplify enforcement by narrowing the collection points considerably. That's one weak point. As long as there's big money involved, there will be incentives to minimize, cajole, hide, smuggle, etc. For example, the tax burden for cigarettes…

As I said in another reply, there is already tax-evasion at the business level. Only having to enforce tax collection at the business level allows more focus on ensuring compliance. I would think the penalties would be much higher as well.

As far as basic income fraud, I think it should a basic income for EVERYONE, no matter the income level. If you are a real person with identity documents and of a certain age, you get a check. Will people try to defraud that, of course. They already defraud all the existing government programs. But as with dropping income tax, with basic income you drop all other government merit based assistance programs and focus only on a basic income program. Your fraud detection is now focused on a single program.

I even like the FairTax idea of an across the board tax 'prebate' for poverty level spending. Then every eligible citizen gets a basic income AND doesn't pay taxes on spending below the poverty line.

The question would be, would the taxes collected on above-poverty spending fully fund the program AND federal/state/local government spending? That's where I'm totally clueless. I tend to think that it would work out if it was a complete changeover. All government assistance programs would need to be merged into a single program and the federal/state tax systems would need to be scrapped en masse and replaced with a flat federal sales tax.

Will it ever happen? Hell no. Even if it is economically viable, there are way too many special interests that would lobby against anything like it happening.

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