Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers • Hacker News Board

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#201

Post by beat » Wed, May 20, 2015, 4:14 PM UTC

enraged_camel wrote: post #172

sbov wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem isn't that we're throwing them in jail for no reason . The problem is we aren't throwing non-poor non-minorities in jail for the same reasons. Most friends of mine regularly do drugs. Even the self made multi millionaires. None of them have been to jail. They aren't subject to the random ass searches like the poor are. If things were different - if the millionaires were treated with the same suspect, you…

The laws are terribly flawed, but they do change. For instance, up until 2010, there was a 100:1 (one hundred to one) disparity between federal criminal penalties for crack cocaine possession vs. powder cocaine possession. Crack possession also carried a mandatory minimum five-year sentence. Obama signed the Fair Sentencing Act in 2010, reducing the disparity to 18:1 and removing the mandatory minimum. The law is sti…

The relative sentencing is about the choice of customer. Crack is cocaine that poor people can afford.

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#202

Post by LordKano » Wed, May 20, 2015, 4:16 PM UTC

ams6110 wrote: post #114

CPLX wrote: post #48

There's all this discussion of these issues, which relate to racism, economic issues, police brutality, crime, etc. They seem complicated and nuanced and people throw their hands up and say well what can we do. The answer to that question is actually so simple you can say it in four words: End the drug war. Someone far more eloquent than me, The Wire creator David Simon, can flesh that out a little: http://www.washin…

I'll agree that the drug war is out of control and as a "cure" it's worse than the disease. But people are not being locked up just because they are black, or poor. They are committing crimes, and pleading or being found guilty. The problem I have with pieces like the original article are that they are making it sound like we are engaging in a Gestapo-like rounding up of large numbers of minorities for no reason and…

But people are not being locked up just because they are black, or poor. They are committing crimes, and pleading or being found guilty.

I have a friend, someone that has been my friend for 30 years, who is in prison right now for drugs.

He wasn't incarcerated because he's black. He was incarcerated because he was caught selling marijuana and laundering money.

I, on the other hand, chose a different path in life. I made the decision to not get involved with the things that he was doing. I have no criminal record and I'm every bit as black as he is.

I agree that fatherlessness is the key component here. The best predictor of criminality in young people is the presence of a father in the home. This holds true across racial and socioeconomic backgrounds. The large number of single parent households in the black community has a lot to do with the high levels of crime in the inner cities.

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#203

Post by angersock » Wed, May 20, 2015, 4:17 PM UTC

mkr-hn wrote: post #171

millermp12 wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not unlike the lottery, which the poor regularly spent their meager pittance on. Taxation of the poor as Lincoln noted. So can be ban lotteries (and casinos, too) unless participants demonstrate they can afford the losses?

Lotteries are a symptom of the problem of poor financial education. Lottery-funded scholarships are the only way a lot of kids get to college. Ban the lottery, and their parents will blow it on something else. That something else will probably not allocate most of its funding to scholarships. edit: If this country were rational enough for the solutions proposed in replies, we wouldn't even be having this conversation…

Or, alternately, we should be funding that education by taxing companies who will ultimately be consuming those employees anyways.

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#204

Post by teekert » Wed, May 20, 2015, 4:17 PM UTC

In the US, back in 2007, I met some dutch guys, aged 20 and 21, the 20 y/o just spend a night in jail because he was drinking in a bar. He didn't even realize, back home he was drinking legally for over 4 years (and for drinking before the age of 16 there was no real punishment). We had a good laugh, "they must have a lot of jails here" we said.

Lately the government is becoming more firm here (the Netherlands) as well. Beer drinking is now legal only from age 18 and up and serving minors is punishable by law now, a bar owner pays 1360 euro the first time but may risk closure of the establishment. Drinking in private is never punishable. For public drinking (but not for being drunk) the fine is 90 euros, 45 when below age 16. If you are sick from alcohol you will never be punished as it may be inhibiting for seeking help.

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#205

Post by beat » Wed, May 20, 2015, 4:20 PM UTC

darkroasted wrote: post #178

CPLX wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem I have with pieces like the original article are that they are making it sound like we are engaging in a Gestapo-like rounding up of large numbers of minorities for no reason and throwing them in jail. The reason people are "making it sound like that" is because that's actually what's happening. Freddy Gray was plucked from a sidewalk, detained, and then killed, for literally no lawful reason. The conte…

Do you really think it's random happenstance that urban blacks get arrested for experimenting with drugs in a way that suburban whites do not? It's more complicated than that. Police are actually much more tolerant of open-air/street corner drug-dealing in black ghetto neighborhoods than in suburbia. If you read books or news articles about these neighborhoods, you see that the dealing gets ignored for months and mon…

Do you really think things are different in wealthier communities because they "self-police"? Calling the police in a poor neighborhood is dangerous business... not because of gang retaliation, but because of the police themselves. And as you observe, the police generally do nothing about street dealers, and what they do is ineffectual. So why even bother calling them?

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#206

Post by element4y » Wed, May 20, 2015, 4:22 PM UTC

enraged_camel wrote: post #173

millermp12 wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not unlike the lottery, which the poor regularly spent their meager pittance on. Taxation of the poor as Lincoln noted. So can be ban lotteries (and casinos, too) unless participants demonstrate they can afford the losses?

>>Not unlike the lottery, which the poor regularly spent their meager pittance on. Taxation of the poor as Lincoln noted. Not sure if you're trolling. Assuming you aren't, allow me to point out that your analogy is ridiculous. Fines are mandatory: you have to pay them or you face stiffer fines, and even jail. Lottery is completely voluntary. No one is forcing them to play.

Actually, the two are very related. While one is bound by law enforcement and the other is a "voluntary expenditure" they both accomplish the same goal, taxing those who have the least to give.

And while we are involved in a discussion of human psychology. Maybe consider the mental aspects of extreme poverty and you can see that purchasing lottery tickets is not exactly voluntary but a desperate attempt to change the course of an exasperated existence. Just a thought.

For example. Drinking water is voluntary but if you go without water you might get the feeling it's a little more than a choice...

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#207

Post by Bostonian » Wed, May 20, 2015, 4:22 PM UTC

merpnderp wrote: post #140

bilbo0s wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know man... I looked at the numbers. It seems like the violent crime thing is being somewhat overstated here. For example, murder. So... even if we assume that black males committed EVERY murder in the US last year. (I realize they didn't, but I wanted to look at the numbers in a fashion as favorable to your view as possible.) Anyway, even if we assume they committed EVERY murder... that would still only be l…

I don't know if it is correct and I certainly think it is a horrible positive feedback loop, but it appears that people with prior convictions are much more likely to get convicted and do jail time. So if you get in trouble as a kid, you're much more likely to get the book thrown at you for minor offenses as an adult.

I thought juvenile records were not used to determine sentences of convicted adults. Is that true?

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#208

Post by obstacle1 » Wed, May 20, 2015, 4:23 PM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #193

blazespin wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not a race issue. This is an inner city culture problem. Ending the drug war is a first step. But we still have to give these kids something to do. Pay them to go to school.

>This is not a race issue. This is an inner city culture problem. You realise that racist policies around suburb building and home loans cause the inner cities to be mostly black? White people got cheap home loans to move into nice neighbourhoods. And that's one of the reason people are calling it a race issue.

Oh look, a sweeping claim about evil Whitey being responsible for Everything Bad backed by absolutely no data or evidence. Shocker, that.

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#209

Post by Bostonian » Wed, May 20, 2015, 4:27 PM UTC

ChrisArgyle wrote: post #89

Bostonian wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Empirically, crime rates do depend on race, not just class. It's not crazy to recognize reality.

There's no way to advance a discussion by simply stating there is a correlation between crime and race. What solutions come from that? Genocide? Internment? Crime is a complex system that involves more than just the two axes race and violence.

If there is a correlation between crime and race, even after adjusting for SES, that of course does not justify genocide. An individual is accountable for what he does, not what members of his group does. I have no simple solution to propose, but I think the assumption that differences in incarceration rates must be due to racism is unfounded. The police and the courts should try to treat people fairly, and unjust practices should be changed, but we should not try to mandate equal results.

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#210

Post by CPLX » Wed, May 20, 2015, 4:34 PM UTC

beat wrote: post #195

ams6110 wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll agree that the drug war is out of control and as a "cure" it's worse than the disease. But people are not being locked up just because they are black, or poor. They are committing crimes, and pleading or being found guilty. The problem I have with pieces like the original article are that they are making it sound like we are engaging in a Gestapo-like rounding up of large numbers of minorities for no reason and…

I used to think the drug war was the problem. Not anymore. Think about the high-profile police shootings of unarmed black men over the past year. Not a single one of those was over drugs. They were all "walking while black". Ending the drug war would not, on its own, end the "walking while black" problem. The family structure breakdown among the poor is directly, painfully correlated to the high incarceration rate. A…

> He's a black man driving a car too nice for him. That's not about the war on drugs.

Actually, it kind of is. What's the implicit assumption in that story? Of course, that he's a drug dealer. What would be the pretext for pulling him over and searching his car? To look for drugs.

It really is the cornerstone of policing in 2015, just try to imagine counterfactuals where there was no such thing as illegal drugs and drug dealers and so on and it becomes obvious.