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U.S. Spies on Millions of Cars

wsj.com

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Re: U.S. Spies on Millions of Cars

#201

Post by stainednapkin »

woodman wrote: post #47
stegosaurus wrote: post #6

Same deal in the UK with the national ANPR system (Automatic Number Plate Recognition). Ostensibly to reduce the amount of uninsured/untaxed drivers on the roads. Don't want to sit around in databases? Well, here's a nice list of just a few of the things you can't have: Bank account; Car/motorcycle; Mobile telephone; Internet-connected computer; Credit/debit card; Visible face (oh, we might be safe there, for a few y…

There is no way to reverse this. Trying to cage this with paperwork will just lead to more of the same creative interpretations à la NSA. So the rulers don't feel the rules apply to them, big surprise. With that in mind, the futility of fighting the tide, what is the next step? As the ideal solution of reversal is unavailable, we need to go with harm reduction - but what is the harm that we would reduce? Most would s…

You are wrong. As citizens we can grant and revoke government powers at will. Cutting off or significantly curtailing their revenue would have a similar effect.

EDIT: There would need to be a concomitant cultural change as well. As it stands folks are not aware of or engaged with what their government is doing.

Even if we replaced every government official today, it could quickly devolve back to its current state.

Re: U.S. Spies on Millions of Cars

#202

Post by stainednapkin »

JonCox wrote: post #196
josephlord wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't make a difference until someone trawls the databases and can reconstruct much of your life. Also even if it doesn't matter to you don't you want journalists and lawyers free from communication (and who they contact) surveilance? I'm actually fine with a CCTV operator in a monitoring station viewing the feeds. I'm also OK with the recordings being kept a short time in case they are needed to investigate som…

I guess it really comes down to who can 'reconstruct' my life. If it's the police or security services I believe that's absolutely fine, whoever you are (journalists, lawyers etc. included) The UK government don't misuse surveillance for political reasons, if they did there would be uproar. We're not slipping into an authoritarian state, that would be completely at odds with British culture and where we're really hea…

Then you're a fool. Stop trying to foist your lack of critical thought on others.

Re: U.S. Spies on Millions of Cars

#203

Post by josephlord »

JonCox wrote: post #196
josephlord wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't make a difference until someone trawls the databases and can reconstruct much of your life. Also even if it doesn't matter to you don't you want journalists and lawyers free from communication (and who they contact) surveilance? I'm actually fine with a CCTV operator in a monitoring station viewing the feeds. I'm also OK with the recordings being kept a short time in case they are needed to investigate som…

I guess it really comes down to who can 'reconstruct' my life. If it's the police or security services I believe that's absolutely fine, whoever you are (journalists, lawyers etc. included) The UK government don't misuse surveillance for political reasons, if they did there would be uproar. We're not slipping into an authoritarian state, that would be completely at odds with British culture and where we're really hea…

> I guess it really comes down to who can 'reconstruct' my life. If it's the police or security services I believe that's absolutely fine, whoever you are (journalists, lawyers etc. included)

Well I'm don't. At times there may be suspicions and warrants to go after lawyers and journalists but at other times that may endanger whistleblowers and it should be overseen by judges issuing warrants.

> The UK government don't misuse surveillance for political reasons, if they did there would be uproar. We're not slipping into an authoritarian state, that would be completely at odds with British culture and where we're really heading.

Prove it. And how would we ever find out that the government were misuing surveilance? A whistleblower could immediately be identified by correlating movements with the relevant journalist or internet traffic. Secondly trusting today's government and security services isn't enough you need to trust all future ones too.

> I'm just tired of seeing a trend of people who post here all spouting the same anti-surveilance, privacy is everything, ideals. Without adding any caveats for the benefits and protection we gain from people watching over us. It feels like there is total disregard here for what we would lose by giving it up.

I never called for the security services to be disbanded, CCTV to be removed or ANPR to be stopped. I said limit retention. Is it possible that some crimes will not be solved that could have been with unlimited retention - Yes. Is it also possible that legitimate speech, whistle blowing and reporting could be deterred by the current surveillance - Yes. These things have to be balanced.

> I'm okay with giving up a little privacy for the greater good.

So am I. With the emphasis on "little" and "greater good". Your approach seems to be "all" privacy with little information on the "greater good" that will come from it or acknowledgments of the harms done. I believe of association, thought, speech and movement are also goods that are damaged by omniscient government (if people avoid doing legitimate things because of the surveilance).

Re: U.S. Spies on Millions of Cars

#204

Post by JonCox »

josephlord wrote: post #203
JonCox wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess it really comes down to who can 'reconstruct' my life. If it's the police or security services I believe that's absolutely fine, whoever you are (journalists, lawyers etc. included) The UK government don't misuse surveillance for political reasons, if they did there would be uproar. We're not slipping into an authoritarian state, that would be completely at odds with British culture and where we're really hea…

> I guess it really comes down to who can 'reconstruct' my life. If it's the police or security services I believe that's absolutely fine, whoever you are (journalists, lawyers etc. included) Well I'm don't. At times there may be suspicions and warrants to go after lawyers and journalists but at other times that may endanger whistleblowers and it should be overseen by judges issuing warrants. > The UK government don'…

Oops yes, forgot to preface that the police should need a warrant first - I'm not so sure with the security services, probably they should but from a secret, faster process - with more lenient requirements than the police.

-

Overall though I agree with basically everything you say. I'm just tilted a little more towards longer retention and more information than you I guess.

I concede it is possible that I jumped in here and made blanket statements that aren't 100% realistic. The general sentiment does reflect my opinion though.

Thankfully this is why we have democracy, so a more tempered approach most people agree with can be used :)

-

By the way your comments come across as more balanced and reasoned than I lot I read expressing basically the same viewpoint.

Re: U.S. Spies on Millions of Cars

#205

Post by ulfw »

javajosh wrote: post #14

The USA is automatically photographing millions of cars and putting the data in a giant database used by all law-enforcement. It reads like the premise of a dystopian science fiction novel. I can't help but guess that the reaction is going to be a big shoulder shrug, because, to but it bluntly, things aren't that bad for most people. If you are white, have a good job, follow the law, and make sure to richly kiss ass…

> If you are white, have a good job, follow the law, and make sure to richly kiss ass if and when you come in contact with the police, life in the USA is rich, full; it's like heaven.

How exactly does this sound like heaven? Sounds incredibly restrictive and authoritarian to me. Always make sure you're not saying or doing the wrong thing. What happened to 'land of the free; home of the brave'?

Re: U.S. Spies on Millions of Cars

#206

Post by pdkl95 »

jkaunisv1 wrote: post #49
DanielBMarkham wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may be on to something there. I wonder, however, how people are going to reconcile what the government is doing now with all of those previous works of fiction? It's going to have to add up to something -- a narrative must be formed. Were those just the halcyon days of yore? And now we've somehow "grown up" to face the realities of a scary world? Even more troubling, people are people, and when this is seriously…

Um, I really don't think it's at East German Stasi-levels. Known dissidents were gaslighted, had objects in their homes moved around, and had informants reporting on them in their apartment buildings/family/workplace. It's bad, it's dystopian, but it doesn't seem to be THAT bad yet.

While there are good examples in the past (FeeTinesAMady already mentioned Martin Luther King), remember the JTRIG documents about breaking up groups with social wedge issues and other and other divide-and-conquer tactics. If you can drive people apart by attacking potential leader[1] or separating key groups of people before those groups gain any momentum, you can probably skip the expensive and risky "Stasi-style-tactics" completely.

There's a similarity between the attack against Dr. King and the method described in the JTRIG documents: "COINTELPRO". Instead of being stopped by the Church Committee, the program probably got a renaming and reorg[2] to move away from the "failed branding". Regardless of the name, the tactics are being used (it's just modern marketing tricks).

It is easy to see the enemy that is loud and disruptive, and a lot harder to notice who is responsible for these newer, more subtle attacks that - especially when the attacker understands P.R. and branding

[1] and identifying relationship graphs ix exactly what you get from simple logs of telephone metadata. Throw a few JOIN clauses into your query, and you can do the COTRAVELER trick of extending those relationship graphs into many other areas.

[2] similar to how "Total Information Awareness" got renamed and moved around

Re: U.S. Spies on Millions of Cars

#207

Post by DanielBMarkham »

pdkl95 wrote: post #206
jkaunisv1 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Um, I really don't think it's at East German Stasi-levels. Known dissidents were gaslighted, had objects in their homes moved around, and had informants reporting on them in their apartment buildings/family/workplace. It's bad, it's dystopian, but it doesn't seem to be THAT bad yet.

While there are good examples in the past (FeeTinesAMady already mentioned Martin Luther King), remember the JTRIG documents about breaking up groups with social wedge issues and other and other divide-and-conquer tactics. If you can drive people apart by attacking potential leader[1] or separating key groups of people before those groups gain any momentum, you can probably skip the expensive and risky "Stasi-style-t…

Meta note: Every news organization that issued a "TIA is dead" story really needs to go back and make a retraction.

Re: U.S. Spies on Millions of Cars

#208

Post by robotkilla »

fnordfnordfnord wrote: post #105
robotkilla wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was also unaware of this. That said, RFID chips are used for inventory systems. The inclusion in a tire is most likely innocuous and doesn't seem that unusual to me.

>The inclusion in a tire is most likely innocuous and doesn't seem that unusual to me. Its intended purpose being innocuous wouldn't stop someone from abusing it.

Agreed. I should probably buy an RFID read / writer.

Re: U.S. Spies on Millions of Cars

#209

Post by ionised »

JonCox wrote: post #190
stegosaurus wrote: post #6

Same deal in the UK with the national ANPR system (Automatic Number Plate Recognition). Ostensibly to reduce the amount of uninsured/untaxed drivers on the roads. Don't want to sit around in databases? Well, here's a nice list of just a few of the things you can't have: Bank account; Car/motorcycle; Mobile telephone; Internet-connected computer; Credit/debit card; Visible face (oh, we might be safe there, for a few y…

I sometimes feel the Hacker News crowd are a bit out of touch with the rest of the population. Here in the UK most people I know feel safer with surveillance, it's used primarily to keep law and order. We don't live in some authoritarian state where it's used for nefarious means, it's used to keep the public safe. And seriously, why would you care if you're sitting on a database? What difference does it make to anyth…

Don't presume to speak for people in the UK.

I'm from the UK and I absolutely, utterly disagree with what you are saying, most of which is baseless.

There have been abuses, there are corrupt intentions at work and there most certainly are people who do not think this level of surveillance is a good thing.

Re: U.S. Spies on Millions of Cars

#210

Post by freehunter »

stainednapkin wrote: post #201
woodman wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no way to reverse this. Trying to cage this with paperwork will just lead to more of the same creative interpretations à la NSA. So the rulers don't feel the rules apply to them, big surprise. With that in mind, the futility of fighting the tide, what is the next step? As the ideal solution of reversal is unavailable, we need to go with harm reduction - but what is the harm that we would reduce? Most would s…

You are wrong. As citizens we can grant and revoke government powers at will. Cutting off or significantly curtailing their revenue would have a similar effect. EDIT: There would need to be a concomitant cultural change as well. As it stands folks are not aware of or engaged with what their government is doing. Even if we replaced every government official today, it could quickly devolve back to its current state.

>You are wrong. As citizens we can grant and revoke government powers at will.

Theoretically. First you would need someone with these beliefs to run for office. You would need them to win office, in a position where they have the power to change the laws. Then you would need them to resist the temptation to listen to lobbyists trying to change their mind. Then you would need a vote to pass. Then you would need the government agencies to agree (just because the law says something, doesn't mean everyone agrees). Generally this would take going to a high court who forces the government to comply. Hopefully that court is public and not a private rubber stamp committee.

Theoretically, we can revoke government positions. But we need politicians to do it on our behalf, and we don't really have politicians who are willing to do that.

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