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When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

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Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#201

Post by tomp »

wyclif wrote: post #99
rokhayakebe wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it that women get underpaid or is there more to it? Women and men should also tell every woman they know to negotiate their pay. The first offer is not something anyone has to take, and while this may be self evident here, it isnt everywhere.

Women engineers should be encouraged to learn how to negotiate salary themselves, or from a mentor. They should also be encouraged to view salary negotiation as a positive part of their soft skills, rather than a necessary evil.

No need to be sexist. This would be useful for all engineers, not just female engineers.

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#202

Post by lomnakkus »

DougN7 wrote: post #195
lomnakkus wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I haven't yet found a job that pays me to sit around and read a lot [...] Then I contend that you haven't found a place of employment that values you as an individual and just views you as a cog in a giant machine -- in which case: leave as soon as you can! If possible, start your own business. (Btw, there are places that value individuals, but they are alas few and far between :(. )

I don't understand what you mean. A business has to produce output that others are willing to pay for. Sitting around reading and spending time with a girlfriend are not things most other people will pay you for. It's easy to value a person as an individual - it's quite another thing to take money out of your pocket and give to everyone you 'value' because they are individuals.

Oh, sorry. I'm from a tradition where "read a lot" means expanding your mind. (I'm assuming you're not reading pointless romance novels, and such.) My response was predicated on the idea that your employer was not valuing intellectual/cultural education.

(If that doesn't apply, then I'm doubly sorry.)

EDIT: I now realize this comment may sound ridiculously smug, but I'm not sure what to do about that. I do realize that I am privileged (by location of birth, etc.), FWIW.

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#203

Post by Iv »

charlesdm wrote: post #81
Iv wrote: post #9

I work for more than a decade now and I still am unsure about what rule to follow. Here are a few things that I have seen happening: I once believed in transparency about that. I told my salary to a friend I just helped to get hired in the company where I already had a few years of experience. Upon hearing my higher salary, he immediately went to my boss to ask for a raise. Due to an incredible incompetence of the HR…

Was the CEO a shareholder? Sometimes CEO/CTO/COO salaries are distorted (e.g. artificially high or low), depending on if they are a significant shareholder and if they are getting dividends or capital gains from stock.

He was a major shareholder claiming that he did not care about his salary at all.

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#204

Post by lotsofmangos »

Robadob wrote: post #184
lotsofmangos wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

4.8 to 7.1% is quite a bit more significant than your initial claim of 2 to 3% edit - also, how do you claim to have any kind of confidence in the accuracy of your own estimate, while simultaneously arguing that reaching any sort of accurate value is impossible?

It was someone else who made that initial claim of 2%, however if you read the full summary of my second link, they admit to only accounting for factors they were able to measure. So additional factors they didn't account for, may have influence towards the divide (other than gender-pay), and may account for any number that could further reduce that 4.8-7.1%. I'm not saying it is as low as 2-3%, but its certainly pos…

It was someone else who made that initial claim of 2%

Sorry, complete failure to pay attention on my part.

Though as to your other point, unmeasured factors could push the figure either way, so if you allow the error bars to go as low as 2% purely on a hunch, then you should also consider that it could be up to 9.9%, if trying to work out any sort of reasonable policy.

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#205

Post by learnstats2 »

rokhayakebe wrote: post #142
wyclif wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Women engineers should be encouraged to learn how to negotiate salary themselves, or from a mentor. They should also be encouraged to view salary negotiation as a positive part of their soft skills, rather than a necessary evil.

I think it is women in all fields. I was talking to a lady friend about a job offer she got and advised she negotiate her salary. From her response it sounded as if I was trying to get her to loose the opportunity.

You can't really negotiate effectively unless you are willing to lose the opportunity.

Your friend might be aware that she has fewer opportunities and therefore be less willing to take this risk.

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#206

Post by throwaway217384 »

throwaway217384 wrote: post #34
throwaway217384 wrote: post #25

I work for a smaller software company (~25 employees) and basically manage all things IT (internal business IT and software development). I'm responsible for the IT budget, our software developer salaries are the single largest company "expense". When I started several years ago it came to my attention that the existing developers and IT staff were drastically underpaid (there was one other internal developer, an int…

A few more things: Half the developers salaries are more than the managing partners salaries (although the managing partners get a bonus which then makes their annual income higher than anyone else in the company so long as the company does well). When I tell the employees not to discuss salary I offer them a few things to say in case another coworker asks them. My first go to reply is "I consider my salary and finan…

Clarification: Half the developers salaries are more than the managing partners salaries today,when I started most the developers were making half of what the MP's salaries were.

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#207

Post by jrs235 »

TheLoneWolfling wrote: post #41
throwaway217384 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting question. I think many, men and women, are still biased against women because they believe they are catty and dramatic or are afraid of increased legal issues (lawsuits). These are obviously not reality either and it too sucks.

There's also an issue with maternity leave. Maternity leave means that women effectively cost more than men for the same amount of work, in the long run and on average. This can be mitigated by laws, but cannot be eliminated without addressing the underlying social issues. And no, mandatory paternity leave doesn't eliminate it, as there are more single mothers than single fathers. The logic is simple. Companies survi…

If maternity and paternity leave is leave without pay (unless one elects or has to use available accrued paid time off) then it shouldn't matter. Except having to plan around a short term vacancy can be an undesirable problem for a manager or company No matter the position goes vacant for that period of time or if a temp worker is hired to fill it, you will have a loss in productivity.

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#208

Post by thrway20150124 »

Throwaway account for various reasons...

There's social norms that make many people feel uncomfortable talking about money. One of the big ones being jealously. Either you being jealous of other people's success, or vice-versa.

Be sheer luck, when I entered the tech workforce some 30 years ago, I developed a close group of friends, also in tech, and we would be open about our compensation and help each other with negotiation. I cannot overstate how valuable each of us have found that.

There's two big reasons: First, starting a new job (or sometimes asking for a raise) is a big life change. There's a big emotional element & it's hard to be rational. Having people you trust who have your best interest at heart but do not have their thoughts clouded by emotion is huge.

Second, negotiating is hard for most people, especially if you don't have much experience in it. Talking strategy & approach as a group gives everyone more experience, and there's the added benefit you guy in knowing you're not crazy. You're less likely to have doubt & more likely to stick to your guns.

Throughout the years, each of has leapfrogged each other multiple times. The guy making the least suddenly becomes the guy making the most. When that happens pretty much everyone is happy/excited. The general view is "hey, now we now there's more out there!" The realization is that it's not us against each other, but us against everyone else. The more the group collectively makes, the better.

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#209

Post by kd0amg »

sokoloff wrote: post #179
mattdw wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a case currently in front of the employment courts here in NZ which is confronting this directly. A group of aged-care nurses (working in retirement homes etc.) have made a claim to the employment court that (a) it's a female-dominated vocation, (b) it's lower paid than other similar vocations (by demands, skills, qualifications etc) and (c) that (a) and (b) are linked. The case has made it through preliminar…

How is the wage level for an industry segment not related to the simple supply and demand relationship for labor in that segment?

Why is that different from reduced demand? Sexism reduces the amount people are willing to pay for the labor of the supposedly-inferior sex.

Re: When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'

#210

Post by wyclif »

tomp wrote: post #201
wyclif wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Women engineers should be encouraged to learn how to negotiate salary themselves, or from a mentor. They should also be encouraged to view salary negotiation as a positive part of their soft skills, rather than a necessary evil.

No need to be sexist. This would be useful for all engineers, not just female engineers.

I wasn't being sexist. The context of the parent comment was women negotiating pay.
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