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"Open Source is awful in many ways, and people should be aware of this"

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Re: "Open Source is awful in many ways, and people should be aware of this"

#201

Post by audunw »

sii wrote: post #66
nanoscopic wrote: post #32

I think this is an important point for people to accept, acknowledge, and keep in mind as a reason to strive harder to be open and accepting to people, especially those you don't agree with. I got a bunch of attacks from members of the open source community, due to developing my XML parser. ( Grant McLean and others ) I also got attacked by Poul-Henning Kamp, and then threatened that he would "shame" me for pointing…

> Also, I can't say I have ever been thanked for contributing. Just kicked in the face. Really? My contributions to the open source world are certainly modest, but I get thank you emails perhaps once a month for applications I've released. People are quite pleasant.

Are these end-user applications? I suspect developers can tend to be less grateful than end-users, and this guy was writing an XML parser.

I've also had people thank me for a FOSS app, but that was also a consumer application. The fact that it was open-source was actually incidental though, I don't think anyone have actually forked or looked at the code. If they did, maybe I'd have gotten some hate mail ;)

Re: "Open Source is awful in many ways, and people should be aware of this"

#202

Post by vidarh »

Diederich wrote: post #142
vidarh wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In this case Linus had tried for quite some time to get the person in question to stop pushing crap. Linus eventually told him he'd stop merging his code. From that point of view, if he'd walked after being talked to like that, it'd have been seen as a benefit by many. EDIT: I find it quite amusing that I get downvoted for a fairly dispassionate and mostly objective explanation of context, yet several of my far more…

It's quite possible to make it clear that he'd stop accepting code without descending to abusive language. Erecting a 'safety barrier' against someone who was doing a poor job and being verbally abusive are entirely unrelated. You say that blocking these merge requests would benefit many; so be it. Being polite about doing that would benefit the same set of people, and may others at the same time.

It is possible.

There are also people involved on both sides, and people get angry and frustrated.

> Being polite about doing that would benefit the same set of people, and may others at the same time.

And a lot of people believe that sugar-coating it would reduce the benefit by signalling that Kays behaviour wasn't so bad after all.

Re: "Open Source is awful in many ways, and people should be aware of this"

#203

Post by zimbatm »

chris_wot wrote: post #9
freehunter wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a real shame because it's really true and really needs to be addressed. We've had these conversations about gamers, about startups, about tech in general, but when it comes to Linux (and related open source projects) it's somehow impossible to talk about. The community just isn't friendly and isn't inclusive, and that bad behavior goes far enough as to shut down any talk of the bad behavior.

I don't know about anyone else, but when I read Linus write: "Of course, I'd also suggest that whoever was the genius who thought it was a good idea to read things ONE F✦CKING BYTE AT A TIME with system calls for each byte should be retroactively aborted. Who the f*ck does idiotic things like that? How did they noty die as babies, considering that they were likely too stupid to find a tit to suck on?" https://lkml.or…

Why is is that each time offensive Linus quotes are used only a handful of them show up ? Over the thousands of emails that have been exchanged in the last fifteen years there surely must exist a bigger variety.

Re: "Open Source is awful in many ways, and people should be aware of this"

#204

Post by Diederich »

vidarh wrote: post #137
Diederich wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand this perspective. One can be a very effective guardian of quality without being an asshole about it. For example, this is what Linus wrote: "Of course, I'd also suggest that whoever was the genius who thought it was a good idea to read things ONE F CKING BYTE AT A TIME with system calls for each byte should be retroactively aborted. Who the f ck does idiotic things like that? How did they noty die…

Had this been Kay's first mistake of this magnitude, it would indeed have been reasonable to expect Linus to have been more civilised. Anyone who has followed this more closely would know that this was nowhere near the first time Linus had issues with his code. Yet he did not appear to be interested in listening no matter what Linus told him.

I am aware of the fact that this wasn't his first 'offense'.

Nonetheless, my question still stands: how is a verbally abusive diatribe in any way better than a shorter, more reasoned, and perhaps final response?

Re: "Open Source is awful in many ways, and people should be aware of this"

#205

Post by Mikeb85 »

Havvy wrote: post #158
Mikeb85 wrote: post #63

Open source is not awful. It's perhaps the most important thing to happen to computing, ever. Multi-billion dollar companies have formed largely around open source. It enables millions of people to do business. Learning how to code is easier than ever. Saying open source is awful because you've encountered assholes is like saying free market economies are awful because some vendor overcharged you one time, or saying…

Your response is completely off the mark because in many ways "open source" is as much a community as it is a philosophy. Programming is as much a social activity as it is a technical one. You can release open source works, but if you don't use any social platform to distribute it, who's going to find and use it?

> Your response is completely off the mark because in many ways "open source" is as much a community as it is a philosophy.

Open source is as much a community as the park outside I run in. Other people show up there, some say hi, I meet my friends there sometimes, but the park is not a community.

Re: "Open Source is awful in many ways, and people should be aware of this"

#206

Post by [deleted] »

Havvy wrote: post #158
Mikeb85 wrote: post #63

Open source is not awful. It's perhaps the most important thing to happen to computing, ever. Multi-billion dollar companies have formed largely around open source. It enables millions of people to do business. Learning how to code is easier than ever. Saying open source is awful because you've encountered assholes is like saying free market economies are awful because some vendor overcharged you one time, or saying…

Your response is completely off the mark because in many ways "open source" is as much a community as it is a philosophy. Programming is as much a social activity as it is a technical one. You can release open source works, but if you don't use any social platform to distribute it, who's going to find and use it?

[deleted]

Re: "Open Source is awful in many ways, and people should be aware of this"

#207

Post by tanglesome »

nathanb wrote: post #153

He calls Linus out for being a toxic element in the open source (or at least Linux) ecosystem. This is quite probably true. Trying to look at it from the other side, though, I wonder if Linus got to be the way he is because it's how he copes with the toxic effluvia he has to deal with on a regular basis. Surely Torvalds has to deal with even more of this than Poettering does. If these things were directed at me on a…

You know for being a toxic element, Linus's has done a hell of a job with Linux. Is there anything else that's even come close to it in terms of technical or business success? I don't think so.

Re: "Open Source is awful in many ways, and people should be aware of this"

#208

Post by imanaccount247 »

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #129

This reminded me of the "This is Phil Fish: A case study in internet celebrity" video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmTUW-owa2w Phil Fish is an indie game developer, internet-famous for the game Fez. And "everybody" hates him. Though as the video explains, it's more complicated than that. The video is notably also as being referenced by Notch (creator of Minecraft) as part of the reason why he decided to go into s…

That video is Phil's friend defending him by ignoring reality and saying "you are wrong because I say so". Phil started getting hate because he exploited people, ripped them off, abused them and acted like he was some sort of genius for making a game he didn't even make, which won an award that was won because his investor owns the contest and judged the entries.

The hate grew to massive portions mainly because of his response to that initial hate. You can't insult everyone and expect them to thank you for it.

Re: "Open Source is awful in many ways, and people should be aware of this"

#209

Post by kyberias »

kenjackson wrote: post #85
tomp wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, I don't consider this bad. Sure, it's offensive, but he has quite a good reason to be upset - reading one byte at a time will be really slow. Could he say it in a better way? Obviously. Could you interpret his words in a less literal way? Obviously. I don't know Linus, but he seems a good, selfless guy, with the best intentions at heart. If he's not politically correct, who the fuck cares? Sometime…

For most people the difference between being a complete jerk and a normal guy is simply what they say. Would you tolerate a manager who talked to you this way? I wouldn't. Not even Linus. And then I'd point out all the pretty crappy code Linus had checked in.

Then you'd point out all the pretty crappy code Linus had checked in? That would be your, what, revenge? And a way of showing how not to be a jerk?

I don't think Linus would care. Everyone makes mistakes. Linus is a gatekeeper of sorts and he has to "point out crappy code" whether people like his language or not. The outside world just needs to decide how seriously they take these outbursts. I don't think there's any evil dimension in that.

Re: "Open Source is awful in many ways, and people should be aware of this"

#210

Post by pknight »

It's a shame that ones personal experiences result in generalizations that are then attached to Open Source. People can and will be assholes in any kind of project or group. That has not got a lot to do with Open Source. It would be fairer to say: "I had many bad experiences with the Open Source communities I was involved with".
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