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How 'DevOps' Is Killing The Developer

jeffknupp.com

201–210 of 219 posts

Re: How 'DevOps' Is Killing The Developer

#201
post #181
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My average "devops" engineer is paid the same as the senior-level engineers within my company.

Ditto. DevOps is charged out at the same comparative rate Sys Admin was 10 years a ago. Which makes sense - it's boring work and not as many people want to do it.

Boring is in the eye of the beholder. The biggest challenge I've found is that very few engineers have the depth to even attempt the job competently.

Most engineers simply don't have a meaningful understanding of the internals of large-scale environments.

Re: How 'DevOps' Is Killing The Developer

#202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you haven't seen Brazil, you can safely ignore that part of the post. But you should see it.

I love Brazil , I'm just not tracking how all of that fits into the above.

The article is about how DevOps is killing the role of the Developer by making the Developer be a SysAdmin.

Chuck points out that abstracting the Developer's work too far away from the system in question means the Developer doesn't really understand the system as a whole. Jeff refers to "purely development roles" and other "pure" roles that aren't necessarily natural boundaries.

The example of VHDL is not about hardware and software, but about learning that you didn't actually know something you thought you knew.

The repairmen in Brazil do not realize (or necessarily care) what they don't know about duct repair. The system allows them to function and even thrive, despite this false confidence in their understanding.

At one point at least, Google was investing in (metaphorically) having DeNiro cross-train those guys, instead of umm... Well, the rest of the movie.

Re: How 'DevOps' Is Killing The Developer

#203

DevOps isn't amount making Developers be Ops guys. It's about the fact that automation eats everything, and a significant part of 'ops' is now coding. A DevOps person isn't someone who develops, and who does Ops. It's someone who does only Ops, but through Development. It's not about start ups vs Enterprise, it's about 1 person writing programs or 5 people doing things by hand.

> DevOps isn't amount making Developers be Ops guys

Sure seems that way at many places.

Re: How 'DevOps' Is Killing The Developer

#204
Overspecialization is the source of a organizational smells in a lot of medium-sized engineering companies - a lot of times it's better to have generalist engineers with some specializations in what you need to do than a bunch of specialists for a bunch of reasons, among them:

- (pure) Specialists often don't understand how their decisions affect other systems (and middle management or communication isn't always a solution)

- (pure) Specialists tie you to a particular technology when in reality you may need to evolve to use other technologies.

- If you need a bunch of different specialists to get something simple done (perhaps something you don't do all the time so don't have a process in place), just because they are siloed, it's a lot more complex and usually ends up badly designed (because it's harder to be iterative across teams). Generalists can get simple things done that require different skill sets to accomplish.

Re: How 'DevOps' Is Killing The Developer

#205
post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I was never aware of a sysadmin who couldn't code. Generally, a sysadmin has slightly different skills from a developer - they might code in a highly imperative style and always keeping the actual machine/system being targeted in mind, but I've never known a half-decent sysadmin who cannot write code.

The last time I looked for a senior sysadmin -- less than a year ago -- I didn't get anyone who was comfortable programming in Perl/Python/Ruby until I started using the term DevOps. If that's the term the market wants to use, fine. As far as I'm concerned, a senior sysadmin who can't write in a couple of scripting languages isn't senior.

I consider myself a developer (though I call myself software engineer, due to the incompetence of other "developers" I work with).

I know a reasonable amount of sysadmin (all my computers run Linux primarily, I only keep Windows on for checking hardware issues, and a couple of specific apps I need to run once or twice a year).

I wouldn't apply for sysadmin jobs, because I wouldn't feel my knowledge is enough. I have however seen devops jobs that seem to match my skillset - developer with a bit more. I hadn't really heard of the term until I saw the job ad.

Re: How 'DevOps' Is Killing The Developer

#206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I was never aware of a sysadmin who couldn't code. Generally, a sysadmin has slightly different skills from a developer - they might code in a highly imperative style and always keeping the actual machine/system being targeted in mind, but I've never known a half-decent sysadmin who cannot write code.

Agreed. In my experience a senior sysadmin can work as a above-passable developer. But a senior developer can rarely function as a sysadmin. As to DBA; I can't help but feeling that the OP hasn't worked with "real" DBA's. That's a whole different ballpark and I've yet to meet a sysadmin or developer who can make even a passable DBA. I've always thought the hierarchy goes: DBA -> Ops -> Developers. With the last two r…

Thing is a good DBA is probably better than a crap developer. And a good developer is probably better than a crap DBA. Likewise with Sysadmins.

When I think about expected earnings, I would say your hierarchy is correct.

Re: How 'DevOps' Is Killing The Developer

#207
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're a developer and want to stay relevant I suggest you read up. With distributed systems becoming the norm rather than the exception, developers will need to understand how and where their code runs in production (and how it gets there) to be able to debug issues or write better behaving code.

This may be a simple oversight and I hope I don't sound too pedantic but you may need to broaden your definition of developer a bit. Developers who work on OS, games, embarked systems or professional applications (think CAD) are not very likely to need these anytime soon. More knowledge is always good so I'll check some out anyway!

You're right, I should've narrowed the scope to client-server or perhaps "the web" (although the exact lines are blurry).

Re: How 'DevOps' Is Killing The Developer

#208
post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I was never aware of a sysadmin who couldn't code. Generally, a sysadmin has slightly different skills from a developer - they might code in a highly imperative style and always keeping the actual machine/system being targeted in mind, but I've never known a half-decent sysadmin who cannot write code.

The last time I looked for a senior sysadmin -- less than a year ago -- I didn't get anyone who was comfortable programming in Perl/Python/Ruby until I started using the term DevOps. If that's the term the market wants to use, fine. As far as I'm concerned, a senior sysadmin who can't write in a couple of scripting languages isn't senior.

There's a difference between "Can cobble together some python" and "knows how to use a python package from pypi"

Re: How 'DevOps' Is Killing The Developer

#209

Overspecialization is the source of a organizational smells in a lot of medium-sized engineering companies - a lot of times it's better to have generalist engineers with some specializations in what you need to do than a bunch of specialists for a bunch of reasons, among them: - (pure) Specialists often don't understand how their decisions affect other systems (and middle management or communication isn't always a so…

I will disagree with you on your first point. One of the characteristics of specialists is that they know in practice how the software in which they specialize interacts with other software, where a generalist might not. For example, most specialists in any performance-critical software are pretty intimately familiar with the behavior of the Linux kernel when it comes to things like I/O scheduling and cache eviction, because of how it affects their program of choice. Generalists, on the contrary, rarely know any part of the system in enough depth to be able to quickly diagnose such problems. Often companies without suitable onsite expertise will reach out to specialists in these situations to resolve such problems.

I'll agree with your second point, to some extent. Generalists are rarely tied to any one technology and therefore can be very good at getting your organization to use the right tool (avoiding the common "hammer-nail" problem). However, just as frequently, I see generalists picking the wrong tool for the job, because they again aren't intimately familiar enough with the tools already at their disposal to understand all their capabilities or be able to make an informed decision about whether the gains of the new tool are worth the added complexity of introducing another layer to their stack. And, of course, nobody feels the pain of adding extra layers to the stack quite like DevOps do.

I'm not sure what to make of your third point. Isolated processes talking to each other is just a different strategy from a monolithic design. There are advantages and disadvantages to each. It's unclear to me that monolithic means "better designed," and in fact there are good security arguments to the contrary. But maybe I'm misreading what you're saying.

Re: How 'DevOps' Is Killing The Developer

#210
Every place I've seen DevOps, seems that developers bear the brunt of the work - learning the infrastructure and understanding deployments and such. I've never seen Ops people learning the codebase or even the software architecture / data structures.

Maybe that wasn't true "DevOps"?

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