The inexplicable rise of open floor plans in tech companies • Hacker News Board

Re: The inexplicable rise of open floor plans in tech companies

#201

Post by twic » Tue, Apr 01, 2014, 4:36 PM UTC

rohunati wrote: post #81

athenot wrote: post #19

How about having a developer area that is treated like a library? Silence enforced at all times, you have to whisper if you strike an impromptu conversation. And if that bubbles to a brainstorm, get up and grab a conference room to talk about it.

I've thought about this too, but my suspicion is there are some good reasons why more companies don't do this. Anybody care to chime in?

It might just be that nobody's seriously tried it.

A practical concern might be that a library needs a librarian to shush people. And it needs people to obey the librarian when they do that.

Re: The inexplicable rise of open floor plans in tech companies

#202

Post by ScottBurson » Tue, Apr 01, 2014, 4:44 PM UTC

mikevm wrote: post #171

abalone wrote: post #10

Suffers from the same flaw as most critiques of open plan: it focuses on individual productivity while failing to understand how it contributes to team productivity. Cornell did a study of open plan awhile back that you should all read. I posted it here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7507404 The misunderstanding here is that it's just about serendipitously "overhearing" other conversations. 1. Open plan makes…

> 1. Open plan makes it easier to ask questions. Those are "disruptions", yes, but what the Cornell study found is that in open plan it's actually easier to "read" a person and see if it's an OK time to ask a question, and to quickly reply or say ask me later, and so forth, to efficiently manage those disruptions. So just for the off-chance that someone could ask me a question, I have force myself to wear headphones…

> You want to ask me a question? Send me an IM.

This is interesting, actually. Why is being interrupted by IM not as bad? I agree with you, it doesn't seem to be as much of a problem. But why? Is it just that the interaction isn't quite real-time -- I can ignore you for a few minutes if I'm in the middle of something?

Maybe someone should try the combination of private offices and a local chat server, to see if that's the best of both worlds, concentration and collaboration.

Re: The inexplicable rise of open floor plans in tech companies

#203

Post by Crito » Tue, Apr 01, 2014, 4:46 PM UTC

matwood wrote: post #189

Crito wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stratification. Putting "regulars" into an open floor plan and leaving managers with offices is this concept on steroids (yes, I've actually seen that). I believe that there is an unplanned unorchestrated ongoing attempt throughout the industry to prevent programmers from being seen as professionals. Reverse dress codes (you'll get odd looks and questions if you aren't dressed casually, but instead throw on a suit or…

I had to wear a tie my first few years of working. It sucked. I see dressing how I want as a sign of power, but I do agree with your overall point. Because I can dress how I want, doesn't mean I should look like a slob or unprofessional. I still wear nice clothes to work, just not corporate drone clothes anymore.

Dressing however you like is a great perk. However in my experience, many companies who say that they let their engineers dress however they like are actually requiring (although not explicitly) that their engineers dress down. If you are the sort of person who enjoys wearing a tie, you may find that doing so as an engineer is untenable at many tech companies.

Most people don't bother trying to dress that way so they never encounter the pushback and therefore never even realize that there is an unspoken rule in place. I recommend that everybody try to go to work on a monday with at least a white button up shirt with long sleeves and a tie. I think many of you who work places "without" dress codes will find the experience to be illuminating.

When I tried it, somebody from HR had a nice "chat" with me, explaining that the corporate culture was for engineers to dress casually.

Re: The inexplicable rise of open floor plans in tech companies

#204

Post by ebiester » Tue, Apr 01, 2014, 4:48 PM UTC

bguthrie wrote: post #28

Goladus wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Suffers from the same flaw as most critiques of open plan: it focuses on individual productivity while failing to understand how it contributes to team productivity. For what it's worth, most of the open plan proponents have a similarly frustrating tendency to completely ignore the individual productivity trade-offs.

At most organizations I've worked at that use an open floor plan for programmers, we pair-programmed aggressively. Subjectively, a good pair more than offsets the distractive drawbacks of an open floor plan. If instead you hand each programmer a pair of headphones as they walk in the door then yes, productivity's going to take a hit compared to closed offices. Working in isolation in an open floor plan is worse than…

That's fine in a team room situation. It's not fine when unrelated people are around.

Re: The inexplicable rise of open floor plans in tech companies

#205

Post by rhizome » Tue, Apr 01, 2014, 4:49 PM UTC

RyJones wrote: post #141

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is pure hell for people who actually do work, and often repeated by managers who don't "get it." Silly questions are not the genesis of good ideas, they're a denial of service attack on good work. Read Peopleware.

It's amazing all the managers get offices but the ICs get productivity-enhancing cubes.

I'd take cubes over open floorplan any day.

Re: The inexplicable rise of open floor plans in tech companies

#206

Post by walshemj » Tue, Apr 01, 2014, 4:49 PM UTC

BrownBuffalo wrote: post #175

abalone wrote: post #10

Suffers from the same flaw as most critiques of open plan: it focuses on individual productivity while failing to understand how it contributes to team productivity. Cornell did a study of open plan awhile back that you should all read. I posted it here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7507404 The misunderstanding here is that it's just about serendipitously "overhearing" other conversations. 1. Open plan makes…

Nailed it. A lot of "collaboration" is not derived from isolated silos of knowledge but when its "shared". People who can't operate in an open environment lack the focus required for such an activity in the first place. I'd rather blame a lack of "integration" into an environment like this on HR than the business owner / layout designer. There is a reason why start-up thought process is injection molded into an offic…

Really what about those of us with conditions like dyslexia which are negatively effected by interruptions far more than the average person?

And you might want to Google "flow state" and how that applies to development work.

Re: The inexplicable rise of open floor plans in tech companies

#207

Post by Joeri » Tue, Apr 01, 2014, 4:50 PM UTC

mikevm wrote: post #171

abalone wrote: post #10

Suffers from the same flaw as most critiques of open plan: it focuses on individual productivity while failing to understand how it contributes to team productivity. Cornell did a study of open plan awhile back that you should all read. I posted it here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7507404 The misunderstanding here is that it's just about serendipitously "overhearing" other conversations. 1. Open plan makes…

> 1. Open plan makes it easier to ask questions. Those are "disruptions", yes, but what the Cornell study found is that in open plan it's actually easier to "read" a person and see if it's an OK time to ask a question, and to quickly reply or say ask me later, and so forth, to efficiently manage those disruptions. So just for the off-chance that someone could ask me a question, I have force myself to wear headphones…

In our company we combined the two, the developers sit in a large open floor plan which is a quiet zone, and to discuss something you go into a meeting room. The quiet zone is enforced through social pressure, a bit like a library reading room, except less perfectly quiet (people still periodically interrupt the silence). The result is a lack of team dynamics because people don't talk enough, AND a lack of personal productivity, because there are still enough distractions that you can't work for long uninterrupted stretches.

I've become convinced the best solution is the one from peopleware: 2 to 4 people offices, with a door.

Re: The inexplicable rise of open floor plans in tech companies

#208

Post by walshemj » Tue, Apr 01, 2014, 4:51 PM UTC

ianstallings wrote: post #172

Inexplicable? Allow me to explain in one word - money. Or lack of it, to be more precise.

Actually its capture by a function that has no interest in the efficiency of how people work just in lowing the cost to them.

ie I save 5% on office costs (and get a year end bonus) but I dont care that performance went down by 15% (this is what IBM found was the benefit of having a private office)

Re: The inexplicable rise of open floor plans in tech companies

#209

Post by empthought » Tue, Apr 01, 2014, 4:53 PM UTC

sutterbomb wrote: post #146

empthought wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That link about the Cornell study is comically bad. Where are the raw data tables? Doing a little background research it seems they were comparing open floor plans to cubicles. They didn't even consider the obvious alternatives to the panopticon, such as remote work or the tried-and-true office with a door.

I don't think "office with a door" is an obvious alternative, because it's prohibitively expensive to build out a space with individual offices for every single employee. It's like saying a study that compared air travel to high speed rail is comically bad because it didn't even consider teleportation. (Extreme hyperbole, but I think it conveys my point.)

It's only prohibitively expensive if you have too many employees.

Re: The inexplicable rise of open floor plans in tech companies

#210

Post by mikevm » Tue, Apr 01, 2014, 4:54 PM UTC

ScottBurson wrote: post #202

mikevm wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 1. Open plan makes it easier to ask questions. Those are "disruptions", yes, but what the Cornell study found is that in open plan it's actually easier to "read" a person and see if it's an OK time to ask a question, and to quickly reply or say ask me later, and so forth, to efficiently manage those disruptions. So just for the off-chance that someone could ask me a question, I have force myself to wear headphones…

> You want to ask me a question? Send me an IM. This is interesting, actually. Why is being interrupted by IM not as bad? I agree with you, it doesn't seem to be as much of a problem. But why? Is it just that the interaction isn't quite real-time -- I can ignore you for a few minutes if I'm in the middle of something? Maybe someone should try the combination of private offices and a local chat server, to see if that'…

> Is it just that the interaction isn't quite real-time -- I can ignore you for a few minutes if I'm in the middle of something?

That is exactly why.