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The Ocean is Broken (2013)

theherald.com.au

201–210 of 246 posts

Re: The Ocean is Broken (2013)

#201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you worked out how much time of species existence, statistically, a single person not eating fish can save? Would you expect it to be more than a fraction of a second?

I'm not sure I understand what your argument is. All I can do is change my behavior. I can't change the behavior of hundreds of other people as much as I would want to. If your argument is that individual effort isn't worth the benefit, I'm not sure what to tell you other than this again seems nothing more than an apologist rationalization to defend existing destructive behavior. It's easier to rationalize your exist…

My argument is that you should examine what your intended outcome is. If your goal is (1) to feel better about yourself by not contributing to the extinction of fish, then by all means continue what you're doing. If, however, your goal is (2) to halt or significantly slow the extinction of fish, then simply not eating fish is completely insufficient, and you need to figure out how to do something that has a larger effect. I think you're arguing as though your goal is (1).

"All I can do is change my behavior. I can't change the behavior of hundreds of other people as much as I would want to."

Well, millions, I assume you mean.

"make the cognitive effort to recognize the wrongness."

I think you're assuming my conclusion. :)

Re: The Ocean is Broken (2013)

#202
post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Noting that parent was referring to net primary productivity (on which, Jeffrey Dukes, "Burning Buried Sunshine", is very strongly recommended: http://globalecology.stanford.edu/DGE/Dukes/Dukes_ClimChange... ), the sustainability of various renewable energy technologies is an open question. But here's the dilemma as I see it: • Modern technological civilization is predicated on abundant cheap (high EROEI) energy sour…

What's your alternative? Nuclear. I notice you don't mention this at all, unless you mean to include it in "electrical generation", in which case your statement that technological civilization is not sustainable strikes me as far too pessimistic. Even if you only consider nuclear to be a temporary energy source while we develop high-grade solar energy, it still can get us a lot further than our remaining fossil fuels…

Nuclear

Great! Fission or fusion? What fuel cycle? What reactor design? Is it proven? Experimentally? Prototype? In production?

What's the fuel availability look like? How about issues with proliferation, waste disposal, plant accidents, and plant decommissioning?

I didn't spell out my alternatives in detail, but yes, nuclear is an option for electrical generation (I suppose you could also run a power loom or stamping gin off of one if you really wanted to). However of the options:

• Fusion's not there yet. Tokamak, NIF, or Polywell. Nothing but the shortest experimental possible ignitions yet. Nothing remotely commercializable. Several fuel cycles are fairly constrained.

• Uranium/plutonium LWR fission has a pretty critical fuel shortage. 80 years at present usage, 6 if we go 100% nuclear at present energy consumption rates. Scale in anticipated global energy growth rates and it's less than that. Waste, decommissioning, and accident issues are significant.

• Breeding uranium or plutonium might extend fuel supplies but creates significant weapons-grade material proliferation concerns.

• The TeraPower "nuclear candle" is a nice bridge technology ... if it works, but that only lasts until our existing nuclear waste is consumed (which raises the point: you don't want to be too good at disposal: the stuff might come in handy).

• Thorium has a vocal and occasionally demented lobby on the Intarwebs, but even the optimistic Chinese see MSR as 25 years out from commercialization.

And I see energy needs coming to a head Real Soon Now -- rather less than 25 years, at any rate.

And none of these technologies, nor wind, solar, geothermal, hydro, or tidal power give you liquid fuels, which is what planes, trains, automobiles, trucks, buses, boats, construction equipment, furnaces, generators, back-up power systems, and remote energy applications rely on. Sure, you've got Fischer-Tropsch, the Sabatier reaction, and other solid-to-liquid, gas-to-liquid, and fuel synthesis processes. All of which, scaled to the 100 million barrels of oil consumed daily globally would represent an absolutely massive investment of capital and energy.

Conventional crop biofuels, wastestream-to-energy, sewage-to-energy, and advanced algael biofuels all suffer from the challenge that your dealing with net captured flux of around 10 W/meter^2, maybe 100 W/meter^2 for algae, of photosynthetic efficiency. And you've got to capture that on land that's not already producing food you're planning on eating, or ecosystems you're planning on sustaining, you know, the rest of the Earth's biosystems.

The 100 quadrillion BTUs the USofA consumes annually corresponds to 29,307 TWh of energy, which at 10W/m^2 and 8 hours of effective insolation (a typical 30% duty cycle) means you're looking at 1,115,186 km^2 ... or a square 1056 km on a side (430,576 square miles, or 656 miles on a side, for the non-metric).

Sure, NYC of 1894 had 200,000 horses pumping out, literally, 5 million pounds of horseshit daily (https://ffbsccn.wordpress.com/2009/11/17/superfreakonomics-a...). And the straight estimates were accurate: keep that up and you'd be buried in the stuff (you already were knee deep in places).

Thing is: it's possible for things to get that bad. Ever been to India? Or just seen the opening sequence of Slumdog Millionaire? Because that's how a lot of people live: combing through trash heaps and swimming in shit (not equine, either).

And the reason NYC didn't drown in brown is because of this one-time lottery winnings of uncomposted Carboninferous lignan-laced pulp and algae decay which we've been talking about here (if decomposers had evolved slightly faster, we'd be discussing this in a small agrarian village somewhere). Technology, as I said, followed that windfall, it didn't create it (Colonel Drake's oil rig: borrowed from the Chinese who'd been drilling 1000 feet for salt since the year 1000). That rabbit's already been pulled from the hat, and we've been looking for a long time, pretty thoroughly, without finding many more rabbits for, oh, 40 years or so. The automobile didn't "come along", it was pumped from an oil well that's now running dry despite fracking fluids leaking into your water supply.

Technology doesn't create entropic gradients, it taps them. And we've got a pretty good idea of what provides useful energy: Moving stuff, falling stuff, blowing stuff, bright light, chemical bonds, and nuclear bonds. And it's mostly the bright light and chemicals that seem to work well for us, higher up it's not sufficiently dense or reliable, lower down and it's too complex. I don't see gradients (flows or stocks) we can tap with the ease and usefulness we have for the past 250 years.

Re: The Ocean is Broken (2013)

#203

I just spent three weeks at sea in the Andaman, and... it's grim out there. The sea is virtually lifeless. Small pockets of sea-life survive on reefs in national parks, but as you look up from the water, you see trawlers scattered across the horizon - soundly within the nautical boundaries of the national parks. They operate day and night, as the article says, and the size and brightness of the arrays of floodlights…

I ordinarily avoid "me too" posts, but I'd really like to emphasize joeguilmette's request: do you have specific pointers to any sources for discussions among yachters of concern over the state of the oceans, and of their abandoning boats, marinas, etc.?

Not really, I'm afraid to say, as a) I'm not part of their community, more of a passerby and b) this was all face-to-face conversations over shared meals/tasks/adventures etc.

It's all hearsay/anecdotal evidence, but I'm inclined to respect the opinions and views of folks who've spent more than half their lives on the water. It's unbelievably sad... it really feels like "last chance to see" for the seas.

Re: The Ocean is Broken (2013)

#204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I ordinarily avoid "me too" posts, but I'd really like to emphasize joeguilmette's request: do you have specific pointers to any sources for discussions among yachters of concern over the state of the oceans, and of their abandoning boats, marinas, etc.?

Not really, I'm afraid to say, as a) I'm not part of their community, more of a passerby and b) this was all face-to-face conversations over shared meals/tasks/adventures etc. It's all hearsay/anecdotal evidence, but I'm inclined to respect the opinions and views of folks who've spent more than half their lives on the water. It's unbelievably sad... it really feels like "last chance to see" for the seas.

I appreciate the response.

Where was this, if you don't mind? I've got a few docks I can walk myself. And yes, I've seen changes to the sea as well over the past few years.

Re: The Ocean is Broken (2013)

#205

I just spent three weeks at sea in the Andaman, and... it's grim out there. The sea is virtually lifeless. Small pockets of sea-life survive on reefs in national parks, but as you look up from the water, you see trawlers scattered across the horizon - soundly within the nautical boundaries of the national parks. They operate day and night, as the article says, and the size and brightness of the arrays of floodlights…

I ordinarily avoid "me too" posts, but I'd really like to emphasize joeguilmette's request: do you have specific pointers to any sources for discussions among yachters of concern over the state of the oceans, and of their abandoning boats, marinas, etc.?

Exactly.

Not a cruiser, coastal sailor so far, but never heard about these issues. In most places there are yearly queues to get into a marina.

Re: The Ocean is Broken (2013)

#206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not in the slightest. It is the conscious mind that gives meaning to the world around it. There is no splendor in nature that is not in the eyes of those watching it. We have seen no evidence of any intelligence beyond our own. If we die, all meaning goes out of the world.

Ironically, this is the same foolish anthropocentric sentiment that is preventing most people to care about the environment. Congrats, you're part of the problem.

I care about the environment, because it supports humanity. If at any point it fails to do so, whether by its own shifting or by our destruction of it, our course of action should not be to sit back and say "Oh well, I guess our death is for the greater good of the universe.". Our duty would then be to grasp the environment and mold it to best suit our needs.

Re: The Ocean is Broken (2013)

#207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really, I'm afraid to say, as a) I'm not part of their community, more of a passerby and b) this was all face-to-face conversations over shared meals/tasks/adventures etc. It's all hearsay/anecdotal evidence, but I'm inclined to respect the opinions and views of folks who've spent more than half their lives on the water. It's unbelievably sad... it really feels like "last chance to see" for the seas.

I appreciate the response. Where was this, if you don't mind? I've got a few docks I can walk myself. And yes, I've seen changes to the sea as well over the past few years.

Andaman sea - Thailand, Similans, Surins, Andaman & Nicobar isles.

One thing I forgot to mention are the jellies. Driving everyone mad, as a) they clog pumps and filters like you wouldn't believe and b) stinger suits are boring.

Re: The Ocean is Broken (2013)

#208
I agree that we need to sound the alarm.

December 2013, North Atlantic Ocean between Florida, Bermuda, and the Eastern Caribbean: nearly devoid of sea birds and fish; plastic garbage common.

January 2014, Coastal Everglades of Florida: silent. No birdsong. None.

February 2014, Florida Bay and the Keys: enough lobster pots that you could walk from Cape Sable to Key West without getting your shoes wet. This is absolutely not a sustainable fishery--this is an unmitigated rape of the planet for the almighty dollar, even inside the supposedly protected waters of the marine sanctuary.

Re: The Ocean is Broken (2013)

#209
post #152

Well we can start by taking pictures of it instead of just writing walls of text about it hoping the average person will read about it and care. Here's what pisses me off. Guy writes about how devastated the ocean is, doesn't take a single picture. The only photo in the whole article is him and his boat.

A writer interviewed the boatie. It was likely published in print first where space is at a premium and/or only supported by the advertising at hand (they don't just add extra pages). Then online editors or lackies put up the story. News at that level and with that heritage is not at the level where they think like many of the rest of us on the net - e.g., add a gallery, etc. Even the Great Pacific garbage patch page…

A picture of the garbage patch would look like any other picture of the open ocean. Many of these problems are not visible to the naked eye.

Re: The Ocean is Broken (2013)

#210
post #34

I sometimes wonder if shopping for groceries is as frustrating for most people. I like Nutella, but when I see Palm Oil as the second ingredient I picture dead orangutans. I like beef, but I sympathize for a fellow mammal and think of the enormous amounts of diverted water and fertilizer runoff that goes in to producing feed. I enjoy fish, but thinking of this makes me sick to my stomach. I enjoy many beverages that…

I agree with your sentiment about those Keurig machines. What a vile invention.

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