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Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

bropages.org

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Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#201

Post by soneil »

blahedo wrote: post #99

Great idea; shame about the name. Here's the problem with using words like "bro" (however jokingly): the problem is not with what you [0] are thinking when you read the word "bro", but with what other people , especially newcomers, are thinking. The locker-room atmosphere that stuff like this creates is a huge barrier to entry for a lot of people, women especially, who infer that on top of all the technically difficu…

While your point isn't invalid at all, it's worth noting that UNIX naming is full of these in-jokes. All the way from UNIX being a play on Multics, less is more, the recursive GNU is Not UNIX, WINE is not an emulator, etc.

While originally names were chosen to be concise for technical reasons, they've been at the whims of geek humour since time(0).

Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#202

Post by rhizome »

res0nat0r wrote: post #112
blahedo wrote: post #99

Great idea; shame about the name. Here's the problem with using words like "bro" (however jokingly): the problem is not with what you [0] are thinking when you read the word "bro", but with what other people , especially newcomers, are thinking. The locker-room atmosphere that stuff like this creates is a huge barrier to entry for a lot of people, women especially, who infer that on top of all the technically difficu…

Or they aren't (over)thinking any of that above, and to most people it is a funny play on words since the tool is related to 'man' pages. I'm going to email the LKML immediately and petition that 'fsck' needs to be renamed to 'love', because I don't 'fsck', I make 'love' and I don't appreciate the negative stereotype that it implies I am some sort of inhuman non-lovemaking monster whilst going about my daily sysadmin…

I think the name is dumb because even with "touch; unzip" jokes, I still think of manpages as manual pages unless someone is trying to make a joke.

Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#203

Post by vezzy-fnord »

ilyanep wrote: post #188
vezzy-fnord wrote: post #124

Clearly this is very offensive, exclusionary and misogynistic. I mean, it's not like software has ever been named based on word play-oh, wait... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalin_%28Scheme_implementatio... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Back_Orifice https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagios https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LAME https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kermit_%28protocol%29 Then it's very common for forks of other sof…

"Offensive things have been commonly done before, therefore it's okay" - http://www.logicallyfallacious.com/index.php/logical-fallaci...

Yet I'm sure you've used the libmp3lame encoder all the time.

The point here is to illustrate that none of this is offensive. But rather, it's being creative with language.

Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#204

Post by KVFinn »

akjetma wrote: post #186
blahedo wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. 1) A big part of my point is that it doesn't matter what an author is thinking when it comes to discussing how others will react to it. I won't restate here my arguments on that topic. 2) We can safely say that the creator was thinking of brogramming. Aside from the fact it would be an astonishing coincidence, the original page uses as one of its examples "curl --header "X-GirlsAreBrosToo: 1" www.bropages.org". C…

you havent explained how this is related to 'brogramming' yet. the word bro in a programming context does not automatically mean it has some kind of conspiratorial relationship with the concept of brogrammers. the author even blatantly suggests reclaiming the word for both genders.

>You havent explained how this is related to 'brogramming' yet. the word bro in a programming context does not automatically mean it has some kind of conspiratorial relationship with the concept of brogrammers.

I don't think intent is relevant when evaluating whether a name is a wise choice, audience reaction is all that matters.

But in any case the single example used being a do-you-even-lift-bro 'curl' points to brogrammer inspiration.

Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#205

Post by paul »

natch wrote: post #200
paul wrote: post #155

Awesome idea. Shame about the humorless nature of this community. To me, a "bro" is a dumb, fratboy version of a man, which makes the name hilariously perfect. If you're feeling oppressed and excluded by a command name, your real problems lie elsewhere.

I'm not feeling oppressed. The problem isn't me feeling oppressed, it's other people feeling oppressed. Poor choice of language can set up an exclusionary environment. To you, this may be funny. To me, your accusation of humorlessness reminds me of people who engage in sexually harassing "jokes" in the workplace, and then try to get away with it by using "humor" as an excuse. You aren't the one who gets to decide whe…

Your attitude and remarks are creating a hostile and uncomfortable environment for me. I demand that you stop immediately.

Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#206

Post by natch »

pbreit wrote: post #6
darbelo wrote: post #5

Here's a nickel kid, go buy an operating system with decent man pages.

Any suggestions?

I always loved the man pages in OpenBSD because they do provide useful examples for most commands. Whether it's the OS for you... ymmv, I wouldn't choose an OS on this one feature, but I wish more man pages had built in examples.

Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#207

Post by ItendToDisagree »

[deleted] wrote: post #179
couchand wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tone argument[0] much? [0]: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Tone_argument

[deleted]

The whole idea of a Tone Argument seems ridiculous "you're denying my claims by pointing out that I am being an asshole" seems inaccurate on its face.

Pointing out the someone is being an asshole is its own thing. Not to mention that being an asshole actually DOES potentially detract from their point to their own detriment and would be better avoided in most cases.

The point may or may not be valid on its own, but presenting it terribly is the fault of the presenter, not the recipient, and having that pointed out isn't somehow changing the argument. That's a bit like saying the phrase "Pardon me? You were mumbling and I couldn't understand." is changing the argument.

Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#208

Post by untog »

Amezarak wrote: post #157
blahedo wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ... aren't thinking any of that ... funny play on words That might well be true; my point is that at some point their individual thoughts don't matter, because they're referencing a larger meme. I'll add that if it were just a funny play on words, we might expect to see a name like "boy" or "guy" or "son" or "person" or any number of other names that are, ha-ha, kind of like "man". The fact that "bro" was picked wa…

Is it so obvious? I live far from the west coast, and the only reason I know the term "brogramming" at all is because I read HN and some other Silicon Valley-oriented blogs. I am the only programmer I know at work or in my personal life that does so. The entire thing is a completely alien concept to me given what I've seen in real life. I hasten to say I absolutely do believe it's a real thing, just something I assum…

So you glazed over the point in the original post:

the problem is not with what you are thinking when you read the word "bro", but with what other people, especially newcomers, are thinking.

Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#209

Post by lifeformed »

natch wrote: post #200
paul wrote: post #155

Awesome idea. Shame about the humorless nature of this community. To me, a "bro" is a dumb, fratboy version of a man, which makes the name hilariously perfect. If you're feeling oppressed and excluded by a command name, your real problems lie elsewhere.

I'm not feeling oppressed. The problem isn't me feeling oppressed, it's other people feeling oppressed. Poor choice of language can set up an exclusionary environment. To you, this may be funny. To me, your accusation of humorlessness reminds me of people who engage in sexually harassing "jokes" in the workplace, and then try to get away with it by using "humor" as an excuse. You aren't the one who gets to decide whe…

I wonder how many female programmers actually feel oppressed by this?

Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#210

Post by IbJacked »

joyeuse6701 wrote: post #62
dewitt wrote: post #4

Is the "bro" intended to be ironic, or are the creators actually not aware that the term is used to represent the worst (most misogynistic, most crass, least mature, least dependable) people currently flocking to the industry? It is by its very definition exclusionary. I suppose "brogrammers" might be a target audience, but the concept of the tool itself is pretty good for just about anyone. Shame about the name.

It's a play on words. This oversensitive, over analytical take on sexuality is getting old. What would you have preferred, the hu-man pages? But that would be exclusionary to people in the industry who don't consider themselves human! What next, are you going to suggest that parents name their children gender neutral names so they don't have to chaff at it if they change gender? You can infer everything, from anythin…

I agree with you. People are imparting their own interpretation of the word. When I skimmed the web site, I didn't notice anything relating to the whole "brogrammer" thing.

Just because it starts with the same three letters doesn't mean anything. As already stated in many other comments, "bro" is also, and more commonly, used as a substitute for other colloquial words such as "man", "dude", "guys", and is frequently gender neutral.

These niggling complaints of offense where none was intended is indeed getting old. The author's intent is what actually matters, not how someone else interprets it. A reader gets to choose whether to be offended by a word or not, he doesn't get to choose the author's intent.

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