Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The desire to make more money, to improve one's "lot in life" and to succeed, this is a Good Thing. One of the key points of this essay is that making more money doesn't necessarily improve one's quality of life. The author clearly talks about at age 25 being financially secure and wealthy, so his pursuit of additional wealth wasn't really about an increase in quality of life. > You can be rich and unhappy, or poor…
I don't think it's possible. We live in a finite world. All my wealth comes from someone else's poverty.
For the Love of Money
201–210 of 291 posts
Re: For the Love of Money
#202I was a derivatives trader, and it occurred to me the world would hardly change at all if credit derivatives ceased to exist. Not so nurse practitioners. Is this statement (from the article) true? I'm under the impression that financial innovations throughout history have generally spurred capital investment. Innovations like fractional-reserve lending have made bankers&investors wealthy, but also spurred spending on…
It's sorta up for debate. My understanding, which is tiny and very limited, is that you can think of the role of finance operators as "liquidity providers". They're the grease in the wheels of capitalism; by either providing access to capital (via loans, or investment) or by matching buyers with sellers. A classical example is you're a farmer that wants to hedge the risk that your crop will fail due to random weather…
It's also a very broad question, kind of like asking "Is science good?". On the one hand, science has brought us all sorts of good things but it's also yielded weapons of mass destruction. (Ironically, Warren Buffet once famously - and presciently - described derivatives as "financial weapons of mass destruction"[1].)
> So, you enter a contract to sell your crop at a fixed rate long before harvest comes along. That's a future contract...
Technically (and pedantically), that's actually a forward contract, which is, admittedly, very similar in nature to a futures contract[2] (and, typically, a forward contract will often underpin a futures contract) and a perfectly excusable error to make. The reason I point it out is not to score a point but to highlight the distinction in order to illustrate how esoteric the financial markets can be.
Their esotericness/esotericity (clearly not real words but I think you get my point) means that the specialised knowledge and skills are highly valued. We generally accept that a ninja/rockstar engineers can be 10x as productive as an average engineer. The distinction is even more marked in finance - not only can a more knowledgable, better-skilled, more talented person make more money than someone who isn't as good, but the latter can end up actually losing large amounts of money (e.g. JP Morgan's London whale[3]). I learnt this the hard way just a few weeks into my (short) career as a trader when I made a very simple mistake and lost $16,000. Do that once or twice a week, and you'll easily end up down over a million dollars over the course of a year. To avoid "fat finger" errors, you need to be capable of being very focused for (in my case) up to 12 hours a day (or, at least, being able to switch from "relaxed, joking with your work colleagues" mode to "laser-focus" mode in a split second). Not everyone is capable of doing that. Some people can't handle the pressure. Others simply lack the brain configuration required to do it - they may well be smart, intelligent people - it's just that it's a very specialised job and some people's brains are going to instinctively better at it than others.
Add to that the fact that the financial markets are, by and large, a zero-sum game (which means that the best guys can actually take money off the not-so-good guys) and you have a situation where the top talent are able to demand (and end up feeling entitled to) the sort of pay packets mentioned in the original article.
It's a bit like Mayer hiring De Castro at Yahoo![4] - if he'd turned Yahoo!'s advertising business around, the company would have earned $600m more revenue over the past year, and a $60m pay package wouldn't have looked so crazy. If a bank hires a rockstar trader away from their competitor by offering a salary of $3m and he makes a $300m trading profit over the course of the year, it's a pretty good deal. On the other hand, of course, they could lose $300m and this was traditionally an asymmetric, one-way bet (i.e. if the trader made profit, he got a bonus but if he lost money, he didn't suffer any downside, which meant that he was implicitly incentivised to make big, dangerous bets) until new rules came in around claw-back provisions (so previous year's bonuses could be reclaimed if it turns out they were based on phantom profits) and paying bonuses partly in shares (thereby linking traders' fortunes more closely to their employers').
I still work in finance but back on the technology side of the fence (I'm basically a freelance product manager for an in-house piece of software that's used by a couple hundred people globally). I spend 25% less time at work than I did as a trader (i.e. 9 hours maximum instead of 12), the work's a lot less stressful and I find it interesting/challenging/fun. Whether I'm still doing it in six months time (as opposed to, say, working for a startup) is anyone's guess but the perceived social worth (or, more accurately, the lack thereof) of finance in general wouldn't be a factor in that decision.
[1]: http://www.berkshirehathaway.com/letters/2002pdf.pdf
[2]: http://www.investopedia.com/exam-guide/cfa-level-1/derivativ...
[3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_JPMorgan_Chase_trading_los...
Re: For the Love of Money
#203Earlier quoted context omitted.
Charlie, as a guy who regularly buys and sells large volumes of stock, is just talking his book. It would be great for him if he could make large transactions without the stock price responding quickly to this new information. But it would be bad for everyone he transacted with. To make this concrete: Say Charlie & Warren wake up one day and decide Company X is undervalued and that they want to by 5% of it. They star…
"But what if you were one of the people selling to Charlie. Before HFTs made the price faster you were the one getting screwed!" The sellers sell at their ask price (or at my bid), it's their decision to sell. If you offer to sell something to me at $10, I haven't "screwed" you just because someone else was willing to pay $11. It absolutely is front running. Moving the price of a stock to your advantage because you k…
Incidentally, if it's acceptable for Charlie Munger to sell in such a way that others will suffer the price impact of his trade, why is it not acceptable for HFTs to do the same thing? In both cases, it's just one trader playing short term games against other traders in order to make money.
Re: For the Love of Money
#204Earlier quoted context omitted.
By getting in before you on the seller. HFT arbitrages the price differential by means of moving faster than you can. Rather than buying Wigets-R-Us at $100/share, the HFT slips in with a, say, $99.99 offer to the seller, and offers you $100.01. Rinse, wash, repeat a few million times a day, and those two cents add up. And it's cost you (and the seller) a penny a share each. The numbers are made up here, but that's t…
You have no actual idea how a limit order book works do you?
Re: For the Love of Money
#205Earlier quoted context omitted.
By getting in before you on the seller. HFT arbitrages the price differential by means of moving faster than you can. Rather than buying Wigets-R-Us at $100/share, the HFT slips in with a, say, $99.99 offer to the seller, and offers you $100.01. Rinse, wash, repeat a few million times a day, and those two cents add up. And it's cost you (and the seller) a penny a share each. The numbers are made up here, but that's t…
You have no actual idea how a limit order book works do you?
Re: For the Love of Money
#206I've long since grown tired of these sensationalist, populist, polemical, self-flaggellating, attention-seeking, pseudo-confessionals by ex-bankers (usually failed ones, although they'll rarely admit that, preferring to portray themselves as having quit for moral reasons, rather than having been unceremoniously fired), getting all angsty about their previous life as an evil, greedy, detached-from-reality monster. Ger…
Re: For the Love of Money
#207Earlier quoted context omitted.
How, precisely, does an HFT tax a stock transaction that I make?
By getting in before you on the seller. HFT arbitrages the price differential by means of moving faster than you can. Rather than buying Wigets-R-Us at $100/share, the HFT slips in with a, say, $99.99 offer to the seller, and offers you $100.01. Rinse, wash, repeat a few million times a day, and those two cents add up. And it's cost you (and the seller) a penny a share each. The numbers are made up here, but that's t…
Re: For the Love of Money
#208I've worked in finance. There are all types. Sure, there are asshole alpha traders who whine about $2 million bonuses. Those guys are pretty uncommon, they're disliked even in spite of their P&L, and no one helps them when they get unlucky. There are also people who don't think or live very differently from respectable professors-- except who have $12 million in their bank account instead of $12. There some pathologi…
>If he doesn't feel like working hard, he could probably use his VC connections as a cash cow... Actually, if he doesn't feel like working hard, it sounds like he could retire on a comfortable 6-figure income for the rest of his life. Without interest, naively $6m will yield $100k a year for 60 years, which is more than enough to raise a large family in a nice neighborhood anywhere in the states - especially if the h…
Re: For the Love of Money
#209TL;DR:
If a high-powered lawyer who makes $1,000 an hour chooses to take an hour off to help clean up litter on the beach, he's wasted the opportunity to work overtime that day, make $1,000, donate to a charity that will hire a hundred poor people for $10/hour to clean up litter, and end up with a hundred times more litter removed. If he went to the beach because he wanted the sunlight and the fresh air and the warm feeling of personally contributing to something, that's fine. If he actually wanted to help people by beautifying the beach, he's chosen an objectively wrong way to go about it. And if he wanted to help people, period, he's chosen a very wrong way to go about it, since that $1,000 could save two people from malaria. Unless the litter he removed is really worth more than two people's lives to him, he's erring even according to his own value system.
If he feels it's unfair that he makes so much more many than others, he should make even more and give out what he think is enough to make it fair.
Re: For the Love of Money
#210Earlier quoted context omitted.
How, precisely, does an HFT tax a stock transaction that I make?
By getting in before you on the seller. HFT arbitrages the price differential by means of moving faster than you can. Rather than buying Wigets-R-Us at $100/share, the HFT slips in with a, say, $99.99 offer to the seller, and offers you $100.01. Rinse, wash, repeat a few million times a day, and those two cents add up. And it's cost you (and the seller) a penny a share each. The numbers are made up here, but that's t…