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Schoolchildren ordered indoors as air pollution cloaks Shanghai

theguardian.com

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Re: Schoolchildren ordered indoors as air pollution cloaks Shanghai

#201

Post by [deleted] »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #144
beachstartup wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> China's economic growth is more real than some folks in the West would like to believe i know that people in general are racist against the chinese for all sorts of reasons, but this is the first time i've heard this one. does anyone actually doubt china's economic growth? i mean all you have to do is go there and see it. (granted, very, very few 'experts' on china have ever actually been there)

It isn't racism. This link provides a useful summary of the question : http://ineteconomics.org/china-economics-seminar-0/short-his... The global interest in China's actual GDP on a comparative scale is to help estimate things like their future consumption of natural resources, their threat to global stability, and to evaluate global recessions/growth more accurately. The problem with "seeing it" is differentiating w…

[deleted]

Re: Schoolchildren ordered indoors as air pollution cloaks Shanghai

#202

Post by streetnigga »

Lagged2Death wrote: post #195
SiVal wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That isn't brown air; it's a brown print. That's a sepia print of a black and white photo of white steam coming out of chimneys artificially crowded together by a long telephoto lens, taken at sunset, and excluding the sky as much as possible. Imagine another photo taken from the same spot, with a wide-angle lens that shows mostly sky and a bridge going off for miles, even the distant cars clearly visible through cle…

That isn't brown air; it's a brown print ... chimneys artificially crowded ... taken at sunset. You may be right, it may be a sepia print. I don't know that much about sepia. GIMP shows 26K unique colors, and plenty of information in all three layers when decomposed to HSV or LAB. I would have thought a sepia print would be closer to monochrome. I can assure you the brown skies were real, and that there's not much "a…

Hello Frank, your memories of reality as you observed it are a lie. Pass the rolls please.

Re: Schoolchildren ordered indoors as air pollution cloaks Shanghai

#203

Post by anigbrowl »

sliverstorm wrote: post #176
Crito wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does that 50% stack up against how much power they use compared to all other countries that have nuclear power available to them? Wikipedia has China's power usage in 2008 as just below the US's, but growing much faster. It also has much more of their power coming from coal in 2011 (46%, to 13%). It makes sense to me that China would be expanding their nuclear power faster than anybody else right now. Of course i…

Right, I have no issues with China using nuclear, it just highlights how much we aren't .

Cheer up, we are building some too; there are 4 nuclear plants under construction at present, which are the first new additions to the US nuclear fleet in 30 years: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/12/business/energy-environmen...

Re: Schoolchildren ordered indoors as air pollution cloaks Shanghai

#204

Post by ashray »

jpatokal wrote: post #154
ashray wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Had the exact same problem with my parents in New Delhi. Father was suffering from lung disease. Wanted to sit outside on the balcony - fresh air, apparently. I tried to explain to him that the air is laden with dangerous levels of particulate pollutants. He didn't care. He died earlier this year. PM10/2.5 levels continue to be disastrous (1900+/700+ on some days especially around Diwali). Mother still likes to open…

But does closing windows really help? I mean sure, short term it slows down the exchange of air between the inside and outside, so it'll be helpful if there's a sudden spike that goes away . But if the pollution is a chronic problem, and it certainly is in Shanghai and New Delhi, then eventually the equilibrium will equalize and the air inside will be just as bad.

It helps when there are drastic spikes in PM levels outdoors such as during rush hour or during high pollution events like Diwali. (people burn fire crackers en masse during Diwali, creates a ton of pollution)

Also, we do have air purifiers and air conditioners running indoors so those help a bit, but once you put them off, opening the doors and windows isn't going to help with situation.

Re: Schoolchildren ordered indoors as air pollution cloaks Shanghai

#205

Post by SiVal »

Lagged2Death wrote: post #195
SiVal wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That isn't brown air; it's a brown print. That's a sepia print of a black and white photo of white steam coming out of chimneys artificially crowded together by a long telephoto lens, taken at sunset, and excluding the sky as much as possible. Imagine another photo taken from the same spot, with a wide-angle lens that shows mostly sky and a bridge going off for miles, even the distant cars clearly visible through cle…

That isn't brown air; it's a brown print ... chimneys artificially crowded ... taken at sunset. You may be right, it may be a sepia print. I don't know that much about sepia. GIMP shows 26K unique colors, and plenty of information in all three layers when decomposed to HSV or LAB. I would have thought a sepia print would be closer to monochrome. I can assure you the brown skies were real, and that there's not much "a…

I commented on the photo, not your memories. I didn't comment on your memories, because I had nothing to say about them. They sounded right to me, which wasn't worth a comment.

As a photographer, there were some things that jumped out at me immediately about that photo, though. I commented on it and stand by those comments.

Since you apparently thought I was talking about you and not the spin techniques of The Atlantic--a faux pas I've probably committed at dinner parties--I should have prefaced my comments with, "I think you're right. That photo, on the other hand, ...."

Re: Schoolchildren ordered indoors as air pollution cloaks Shanghai

#206

Post by Someone »

tanzam75 wrote: post #197
jamesaguilar wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also think I read that more than 50% of the nuclear plants currently being built are in China. That is a big way that they will eventually combat this problem.

> I also think I read that more than 50% of the nuclear plants currently being built are in China. That is a big way that they will eventually combat this problem. Yes, China has 40 GWe of nuclear power coming on-line in the next 5 years. The United States currently has 97 GWe of nuclear capacity, and China currently has 13 GWe. But China is also building 40 GWe of coal plants each year . This is what happens when yo…

According to http://www.wri.org/sites/default/files/pdf/global_coal_risk_..., they plan to build 'only' about 40% of new coal plant capacity, with India taking another 35%.

So, not that that matters for the absolute pollution, but if that >50% is correct, their mix will improve.

Also, they try to build those plants far away from cities. That, hopefully, will spread pollution.

That PDF also states that those plans may not be implemented, as a) coal companies lose money in China because the government fixed electricity prices and b) the public doesn't want their pollution.

On the negative side, their absolute pollution will likely go up, and the gap with the western world will go up even more (elsewhere, new coal plants will often replace older, more polluting ones)

Re: Schoolchildren ordered indoors as air pollution cloaks Shanghai

#207

Post by TsiCClawOfLight »

polarix wrote: post #107
poutine wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference with China is that much of the entire country is covered by a blanket of smog & dust. Not just the cities, but much of the countryside as well for hundreds of km. China does things big in a way that's hard to grasp without visiting. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2478300/Pictu...

I wonder what similar satellite imagery would have shown in early/mid 20th century europe.

Exactly the same thing.

Re: Schoolchildren ordered indoors as air pollution cloaks Shanghai

#208

Post by dreamfactory »

saalweachter wrote: post #183
dreamfactory wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surprising that nobody here acknowledges the black swan nature of nuclear power. The comparative average is precisely not the point. FWIW I once had dinner with an architect of one of the early nuclear plants. They had been lied to about the prospects of a solution to waste disposal and no longer considered it a sensible approach.

Could you elaborate on your black swan comment?

http://features.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2011/03/24/whats-next-...

Re: Schoolchildren ordered indoors as air pollution cloaks Shanghai

#209

Post by dreamfactory »

sliverstorm wrote: post #184
dreamfactory wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wasn't that the whole idea - for them to stop producing and polluting the planet? That giving them food would be cheaper. Of course it would threaten our dependence on cheap clothes and expensive gadgets.

It's not a socially stable option. Not because we want cheap gadgets, but because of the social imbalance. Also from an ethical point of view, it's not very fair to deny them the chance to become a developed nation.

People don't sit around on their bums for too long - it's just not in our nature. If they weren't slaving away in factories they might end up as a society that primarily produces cultural capital (huge social stability there) or they might develop a service-based economy. In the wider scheme, Chinese manufacturing is probably more important to the west than China.

Re: Schoolchildren ordered indoors as air pollution cloaks Shanghai

#210

Post by da02 »

davepage wrote: post #166
da02 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the name (or link) of the visa company?

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