Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful for us

Post by jrokisky » Sun, Jun 30, 2013, 2:42 AM UTC

manmal wrote: post #160

jrokisky wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you that many of the things that America has done are gross and contradict "American ideals", but I think you're underselling the power and influence of European nations. Why are they so easily bending to the will of such a belligerent turd?

Because fighting should be the last resort. If you are persevering enough, then diplomacy is enough to resolve most conflicts of interest. Way cheaper and nicer than warfare (and maybe more successful). The "problem" is, it's boring and compromises might come across as bending to the other's will (even though it's not).

Post by Goladus » Sun, Jun 30, 2013, 3:29 AM UTC

abraininavat wrote: post #191

Goladus wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would, perhaps, be enlightening to quote the entire sentence from the US Declaration of Independence: We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the c…

I'm pretty sure nkoren's point has just flown over your head. You're talking about the obligations of the US Government. The US Government clearly only has the obligation to secure the rights of its own citizens. nkoren is talking about the rights of the US Government. Just look at the language of the very first clause. All men are guaranteed these rights. It makes no mention of citizenship. That the US Government ha…

Post by philwelch » Sun, Jun 30, 2013, 4:07 AM UTC

jivatmanx wrote: post #147

philwelch wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of the Founders more than others. While many of them came from the North, where there were no slaves and slavery was generally unpopular, and some of the others like Washington and Jefferson held slaves but felt bad about it, there was a large enough contingent of Southern politicians who just plain favored slavery and had to be politically negotiated with. If you define "the Founders" as "everyone who attended…

It's also important to remember that this was before the industrial revolution, when almost the entire economy was agricultural, thus the South was far more powerful than the north. The Civil War started right after the industrial revolution ended. By this time, the balance of power was greatly in favor of the North.

Post by rohamg » Sun, Jun 30, 2013, 4:25 AM UTC

4891 wrote: post #199

abraininavat wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I addressed your us-versus-them mindset in my reply to Goladus, but I couldn't help but point out how disingenuous this is: Good can triumph over evil, but as even Jesus said, it needs the "cunning of snakes" to succeed. The whole quote is: "I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves." You conveniently forgot the "innocent as doves" part, obviously because…

You misunderstand my argument. Obviously Jesus says that you should do good. Apparently that was a big part of his shtick. But if you want to actually do good you need to have a pretty fucking clear idea of how the world works. Because, y'know, wolves . It's not that America must act like a criminal gang, it's that it lives in a neighbourhood patrolled by a number of criminal gangs, so even if its ultimate goal is to…

Post by e3pi » Sun, Jun 30, 2013, 5:14 AM UTC

e3pi wrote: post #204

sounds wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you really just put a Lady Gaga in with SCOTUS? :)

Lady Gaga? Sorry ...beyond my ken.