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Poll: Do you meditate?

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Re: Poll: Do you meditate?

#201

Post by hosh »

richardjdare wrote: post #184
hosh wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not that what is in Mindfulness in Plain English keeps you avoiding painful experiences. It's that, that is the level of your practice right now. That's the distinction that Daniel Ingram made between concentration exercises and insight meditation. In the latter, you start by gaining access concentration to your object (breathing, or whatever), and then deliberately seek out one of the Three Fundemental Characte…

Thats something that bothered me regarding mindfulness vs. concentration. Mindfulness presupposes that the "Three Fundamental Characteristics" exist, and have the form described by Buddhist metaphysics. It tells you to take this on faith and go looking for them. As a secular meditator I would prefer not to make the assumption that Buddhist metaphysics is correct. I would like to see the creation of a kind of mindfuln…

You don't have to presuppose that they exist. You can simply observe their comings and goings. It will take a lot longer but it is still possible. You become the observational instrument to see if those characteristics do, in fact, exist.

The critical tools of modern philosophy has been disconnected from direct experiences for this, so it's not as useful as you think it is. At least, not until you have direct realizations.

Where I've found them useful is when (1) you experience said insights, (2) you're off the cushion and trying to integrate them into your daily life and habits. I've also found that " they have to rely on the cognitive, social and philosophical resources of their time and place." is not as big of an influence as you think it is. (And the reverse is true: you experience how modern critical tools have their own built-in biases). But if you have not had experienced for yourself, then I'm not going to be able to persuade you to that view.

I would love to hear philosophers frame these experiences having first experienced these themselves. Otherwise, there's no point. I am, in fact, going to engage a philosophy friend in a discussion after he participates in a few shamanic ceremonies. That will be interesting.

Re: Poll: Do you meditate?

#202

Post by hosh »

nodata wrote: post #189
hosh wrote: post #109

I meditate about twice a day, once in the morning and once before bed. Sometimes I get lazy and just meditate in the morning. My typical amount of time is 30 - 40 minutes. I typically use my breath as a concentration object and go into vipassana , though I have done others. I supplement with the teaching from Tsultrim Allione's _Feeding Your Demons_. If I don't meditate, I can feel my mind subtly destabilizing. It ma…

Is the feeling you get from meditation the same feeling as you would get from doing the same amount of sport per day?

Kinda. It depends on how mindful you are when you are doing or practicing the same amount of sports a day.

If you're spacing out while training or playing, then you're not being mindful. This is also true of people who formally sit: a lot of people will spend years "spacing out" thinking they are emptying their minds and "meditating."

On the other hand, when you train and you get that feeling like... you're relaxed yet focused, your mind is engaged and aware, then yeah, you're likely in at least the first concentration state called Access Concentration.

It also implies something about "motivation". We tend to want to be "motivated" to do something. The feeling is often approaching flow or zone -- access concentration. The thing is, gaining access concentration is skill you can train by itself. Or at the very least, you can figure out how to slip into access concentration when you engage in the sport.

I know that many traditional martial arts are considered "enlightenment vehicles". In modern times, sports can be used for that vehicle.

If you want to know more about this, I recommend reading Dan Millman's _The Way of the Peaceful Warrior_. From there, Millman has a separate book specifically about using sports as a meditative practice. This one provides more of the context.

Re: Poll: Do you meditate?

#203

Post by hosh »

bleechack wrote: post #165
hosh wrote: post #109

I meditate about twice a day, once in the morning and once before bed. Sometimes I get lazy and just meditate in the morning. My typical amount of time is 30 - 40 minutes. I typically use my breath as a concentration object and go into vipassana , though I have done others. I supplement with the teaching from Tsultrim Allione's _Feeding Your Demons_. If I don't meditate, I can feel my mind subtly destabilizing. It ma…

That's a great way to describe it. If I don't meditate, my mind gets all screwy too. I missed a few days while on vacation and found myself wondering: "How do people live like this?"

Yeah. "Crazy wisdom" :-D

The writer who introduced me to that idea had this story. He was able to rest upon stillness even while standing or moving. He's a martial artist, so that means that he doesn't telegraph his intentions.

He once taught a workshop. Some dude, a police officer I think, came up to him later to tell him something. The officer said, "You know, I noticed that you are completely still. Then when you move, there is movement. I don't see any telegraphing. Then you stop. It is really freaky."

The teacher commented, he thought everyone else looks freaky.

I'm not there yet, where I can stay in that state of stillness when standing, much less moving. I've had a taste of it though. Enough that when I'm there, I see people moving. Their body language! So much twitching, and jerking, whether they are martial artists or not. It's like these weird influences in them that they don't know about, animating them. They look like they are possessed.

I'm actually going to adapt a paper-and-pencil RPG system based on this observation. That the way people normally are, is insane. That is, modern adults are insane in socially-acceptable ways. So starting characters would start with a wisdom of 1, maybe 2 if they are lucky. And any actions they take that they do not fully experience (modelled by rolling the wisdom dice pool), they gain a derangement. It's just that characters also start with derangements. Derangements are awesome sources of drama -- like, say, the TV show, Once Upon A Time.

I think this is where the Buddhist teaching of compassion comes in. You know, "how do people live like this?" They can't, you can see the suffering. It's not even their fault, though it is also their choice.

I'm glad that gnosis occasionally pops into Y(HN) to post stuff like this. It has always generated a lot of interest and discussion, and a great chance for people to thrash out what they think meditation is. And who knows? Maybe a few people will give it a try and find that they are more sane.

Re: Poll: Do you meditate?

#204

Post by tedks »

gnosis wrote: post #92
tedks wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've pre-emptively excluded meditation from my set of legitimate things, because it pattern-matches to white people taking something non-white people do and finding "deep wisdom" in it. It's the same reason why various fruits and berries that are common and worthless in south africa sell like hotcakes in the US, and the same reason why anime has so much Christian imagery.

It's true that part of the attraction of meditation for a lot of Westerners is that it seems "exotic" and "different". However, I would strongly disagree with you that such an attraction to exoticism is a reason for completely disregarding meditation. After all, many things that are common in Western societies (some of which you might actually value quite highly) are considered exotic in non-Western societies, and mi…

Oh, I'm not negative of meditation because it originated in another culture. I'm negative of it because it seems like a mystical practice that's only more popular than Christian prayer in the US because it originated from an "exotic" culture. Christian prayer is certainly popular in the US, even to the point where it could be said to be "highly valued," but I would never try to use prayer to make myself more productive in the way people tell me to use meditation.

Meditation is pitched as a tool, and I (try to) evaluate tools based on their objective properties and effects, not based on their exoticism or wow-factor. This applies equally to meditation as it does to, say, dynamic typing.

Re: Poll: Do you meditate?

#205

Post by hosh »

richardjdare wrote: post #184
hosh wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not that what is in Mindfulness in Plain English keeps you avoiding painful experiences. It's that, that is the level of your practice right now. That's the distinction that Daniel Ingram made between concentration exercises and insight meditation. In the latter, you start by gaining access concentration to your object (breathing, or whatever), and then deliberately seek out one of the Three Fundemental Characte…

Thats something that bothered me regarding mindfulness vs. concentration. Mindfulness presupposes that the "Three Fundamental Characteristics" exist, and have the form described by Buddhist metaphysics. It tells you to take this on faith and go looking for them. As a secular meditator I would prefer not to make the assumption that Buddhist metaphysics is correct. I would like to see the creation of a kind of mindfuln…

Ah, I wanted to clarify a bit.

I think it is awesome you want to create a mindfulness practice informed by secular western developments. If you have a chance to participate in a (genuine) shamanic ceremony, your philosophical training will bring a lot to the experience. (There is a mind-to-mind phenomena you can observe in vipassana retreats or in shamanic ceremonies; the content of your mind doesn't just inform your experience, it also affects the collective. So when you bring your Western secular experience into the mix, it brings a, in my opinion, vital perspective into the experience).

I suggest that there is a allergy/aversion to religious traditions that should be investigated by a meditator at some point. Likewise, there are aversions to secular methods as well that needs to be investigated.

Re: Poll: Do you meditate?

#206

Post by joelthelion »

tedks wrote: post #73
joelthelion wrote: post #70

I haven't yet been able to decide whether meditation is legit or not. I keep reading about how awesome it is, how much "scientifically proven benefits" it has. But as soon as you try to learn a little more, everything is mingled with bullshit religious mumbo jumpo. It's difficult to find nice rational sources about the subject.

I've pre-emptively excluded meditation from my set of legitimate things, because it pattern-matches to white people taking something non-white people do and finding "deep wisdom" in it. It's the same reason why various fruits and berries that are common and worthless in south africa sell like hotcakes in the US, and the same reason why anime has so much Christian imagery.

Since when is "pattern-matching" a legitimate reasoning technique? It can sure be used to raise a flag, but excluding something completely on this basis is pretty stupid.

Re: Poll: Do you meditate?

#207

Post by mehulkar »

pkennedy wrote: post #188
mehulkar wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh wow, I never thought I'd find a Pioneer on HN :) I'm an '07 graduate! :)

Yeah, small world, eh? There's at least two others around, but they seem to be heads down building stuff right now.

That's great. Are you in the Bay by any chance? I'd contact you offline, but your profile doesn't have contact info. Would love to meet up.

Re: Poll: Do you meditate?

#208

Post by crusso »

gnosis wrote: post #193
crusso wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

especially the possibility that things like trees might have feelings While I don't want to categorically disparage having different experiences, even those that are drug induced... the notion that inanimate objects and even trees have feelings is fundamentally unsound. If that is a result of your drug-use experience, then I might argue that you have reduced your brain's ability to align itself with experimental real…

"the notion that inanimate objects and even trees have feelings is fundamentally unsound" It may seem unsound from the perspective of ordinary waking consciousness, and certain materialistic[1], physicalist[2], or naturalistic[3] philosophies. But it seems quite sound from the perspective of many non-ordinary states of consciousness, animism[4], panpsychism[5], pantheism[6], panentheism[7], various types of shamanism…

So, "sound" or "unsound"? It all depends on your point of view.

Not really. Either you're using Science-aligned methods for knowledge discovery or you're engaging in mental masturbation.

I think that deep down you're on board with me on this. Otherwise you'd be drooling in a padded room rather than engaging with me using the concrete products of Science (your computer, the Internet, etc.)

Re: Poll: Do you meditate?

#209

Post by samstave »

gnosis wrote: post #64

I recently started meditating, using the method in "Mindfulness in Plain English". So far, I've been able to meditate for between 1 to 3 hours at a time, every day. I do feel quite a bit of calm afterwards and during the deep parts of the meditation, and have also experienced some occasional hallucinations (like a feeling of intense bliss, like my arms are floating, like my chest is a hundred feet from my head) when…

This looks really interesting:

"Genome-wide expression changes in a higher state of consciousness."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22742996

Re: Poll: Do you meditate?

#210

Post by zbuc »

tedks wrote: post #199
dwc wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, but that's just hilarious, as in absurd. You might as well throw out mathematics because so much of it originated in India and China. I'm a skeptic myself, but that cuts both ways.

Mathematics isn't popular because it originated in India and China; it's popular because it's practically useful in a variety of ways. Why are Christian symbols popular in anime? It's not because they're inherently compelling in any way, it's because they're from a foreign culture and they have exotic appeal. Why do people in the US practice meditation? Is it because they rationally considered all available peer-revi…

It's because meditation is practically useful in a variety of ways.

Much like mathematics.

> Why do people in the US practice meditation? Is it because they rationally considered all available peer-reviewed evidence,

More likely that they practiced it and saw some experiential benefit.

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