Live data from Hacker News

"Getting started with Ember.Js is easy." - No it isn't

discuss.emberjs.com

201–210 of 252 posts

Re: "Getting started with Ember.Js is easy." - No it isn't

#201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you find a suitable alternative to Ember? I went with Amber in the end. I can't remember if it was more or less painful initially, but at that point I had spite in my fingers. Not sure if there's also a lesson in that for startups: will you get lucky with some users just because they've had a bad experience immediately prior to checking you out?

Please talk a bit more about Amber. Easy to work with back end REST services? Easy to deploy?

Please talk a bit more about Amber. Easy to work with back end REST services? Easy to deploy?

I used it to build a very basic Jabber/XMPP client in a little over a day, integrating with an existing system.

That's the only project I've used it in so far, and I'm still very much a beginner user.

All I can say is that it solved a problem with the minimum of fuss and inside quite a strict time budget, so I'm very happy with it.

Re: "Getting started with Ember.Js is easy." - No it isn't

#202
post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It's this attitude that makes me never want to use ember.js." Agreed. In fact, I suspect I'll never end up using it, now.

While I totally agree that developers actions can be a turn off for using a library/framework/whatever, it also reminds me of political scandals. Just because person A cheated on his wife (or something similar) doesn't mean that his policies were not good.

The problem is that the community is a big part of a framework/language/library these days. If I have an issue and I need some help, I will first go to the community if I can't figure it out myself.

If I feel like it's just going to be met with someone personally attacking me because I don't agree with their practices, I will just find another community (and framework/library).

It's funny because I've seen some of the same sort of issues with the Ruby community...and Trek is part of that community too.

I don't see nearly as much of this in other communities and I often wonder if it's because of the leadership/certain type of culture that the community is built upon.

Re: "Getting started with Ember.Js is easy." - No it isn't

#203
post #80

I totally agree that our getting started story could be much better. In fact, it's our primary focus as we move towards 1.0. Specifically: * We're actively working on a Getting Started Guide with live examples that walks the user through building a new application from scratch. * We're continuing to improve our guides to talk through areas that might be confusing for new developers, like the naming conventions[1] we…

Another thing that would really help Ember's popularity are screencasts, something like egghead.io, where you'd show off some more advanced stuff. I know that they'd probably be a lot of work to make and to keep up to date, but they are pretty invaluable for getting users up to speed. And the time spent doing these is an investment, you guys would spend less time answering questions and you'd probably have more commi…

Certainly iTunes U drove a lot of interest in iOS dev.

Re: "Getting started with Ember.Js is easy." - No it isn't

#204
haha hey I wrote this reply on their forum. I had no idea it topped out HN. sucks that they froze it. wanna give this comment upvotes so my karma goes above 0?

my intention was never to cause a shit storm. I just banged out a thread on their forum and fell asleep. I just wanted an ember quick start tutorial. and I eventually got linked to one. i'm still going to try out ember later with it.

it's poopy that the thread got froze with so many people having the same problem. i had no idea it was such a major pain point for the library. my only advice would be that sarcastic tones are usually the most helpful, if they're not insulting.

Re: "Getting started with Ember.Js is easy." - No it isn't

#205
post #78

Trek is making a huge mistake IMHO. As a developer I can think of nothing more helpful than to get a "steam-of-consciousness" excerpt from our users. This is something no analytics package can tell you, if you want to make your "product" easy to use then this is the exact feedback you need. Delverworld was outlining the various pitfalls of getting started with ember.js and a core contributor shrugs it off because he…

I have admitted that, publicly, very often, in other topics on discuss.emberjs.com, on websites, on twitter, on videos, and elsewhere. It's no secret I'd like to improve the documentation for Ember.js and I'm already well aware of the places that people are facing difficulty right now. There's work, if people spent a moment reading the top topics in the forum, on a getting started guide with a direct call for feedbac…

"sometimes discouraging culture of dickitude is acceptable and encouraged"

Being honest, I believe that you're being a lot more severe than the person to whom you're responding. He made no personal accusations, he didn't talk about people's nature, whose job what is, the demeanor of other communities, et cetera.

It was not, in short, a complaining post.

What he did was document the steps he went through, why he thought the way the library was presented wasn't accurate, and said "may I please have XYZ." He didn't talk about ego or pretense, he didn't talk about his dating situation, he didn't talk about his food schedule.

He said "could I get a quick start guide please?"

Look how you've responded.

With respect, sir, he isn't the problem here.

Re: "Getting started with Ember.Js is easy." - No it isn't

#207
post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You got feedback from a frustrated user, and I'm sure you didn't just dismiss it internally, so why did you dismiss it externally? Listen, I'd love to be able to write what I want, teach what I want, and do what I want without getting sarcastic reviews. But unfortunately people get frustrated and that's how they respond. "Oh, a tmux book? Who needs that?" "You suck" is very, very different from "the thing you built s…

In any other venue, I would 100% agree and would not have responded this way. Delvarworld's tone is totally mild and in keeping with typical internet culture. But Discourse's goal is to raise the bar. Significantly. They blog rather eloquently about it http://blog.discourse.org/2013/03/the-universal-rules-of-civ... And new topic posters are asked to keep that high standard in mind when posting. I'm sure his sarcasm w…

> But Discourse's goal is to raise the bar. Significantly.

Well then it's probably not the right place for ember, because programmers don't behave that way, and your response has been to lock down all forms of criticism, even things you find to be in keeping with internet and programmer culture.

That's criticism you need - criticism you say is in keeping with the culture, and that you say you've been actively soliciting.

.

> "[the sarcasm] still deviates from the high quality of discussion I'd like to have"

I think what you might be missing is that nobody else is reading it that way except you. Most of us are trying to tell you "guy, you're being way over-sensitive, and you aren't rising on your own to the standards you set for others."

.

> "I opted to publicly explain why I wouldn't be participating."

And the response you got was "you're lowering the bar; stop it."

And you have dug your heels in to insist you're doing the right thing.

We disagree.

.

> "What I failed to do, and this shows my failing to keep that high bar, is explain what we could change to make the discussion civil."

What you could have done is responded to the actual legitimate criticism, which you pay lip service to being appropriate in typical internet culture.

Dancing around it then shutting the topic off is not a form of keeping a high bar, sir. It is my opinion that this phrasing is self congratulatory, so that you don't have to face the nature of what you're actually doing.

Have you considered that your behavior here is doing serious damage to the reputation of the ember community?

It doesn't really matter if you agree with yourself; the rest of us don't. Repeating yourself, "clarifying" yourself; these things don't matter.

In reality, someone joked around, told you what they needed; you paniced, and yelled at them for giving you what you pretend you want. Then you told everyone "oh this is totally appropriate, but Discourse wants something else."

Except Discourse didn't do this. You did.

Please understand, sir, that to the rest of us, you just appear to be back-pedalling and blame shifting.

To the rest of us, it looks like you barked at someone because you didn't want to know that your role as documentation maintainer had not been well fulfilled.

And "explaining" won't change that that's how this is being interpreted, because if that's what really was going on, someone would respond by "explaining."

Civil discussion doesn't mean discussion you like, and it doesn't actually exclude sarcasm, either. What civil discussion is is factually based discussion which does not make personal attacks.

He didn't make personal attacks. You did, extensively, in three places that I'm aware of.

If you find him to be uncivil, get a mirror.

Re: "Getting started with Ember.Js is easy." - No it isn't

#208
post #163
post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In any other venue, I would 100% agree and would not have responded this way. Delvarworld's tone is totally mild and in keeping with typical internet culture. But Discourse's goal is to raise the bar. Significantly. They blog rather eloquently about it http://blog.discourse.org/2013/03/the-universal-rules-of-civ... And new topic posters are asked to keep that high standard in mind when posting. I'm sure his sarcasm w…

I can't help but feel that you're doing an excellent job of proving that a single short, civil post can do more damage to the community than any amount of slight sarcasm. If "absolute civility at all costs" is the basis for Discourse, I'd much rather try to have high quality discussions elsewhere. Edit: The link you provided has "responding to a post’s tone instead of its actual content" as part of a list of things t…

That rule/principle seems a quick route to Wikipedia's meta-drama. Where things are not about what is true, but what is verifiable, and what is verifiable is about someone's arbitrary standards. Where an argument can be "rebutted" with "WP:NOT WP:SOMETHING WP:NORLY".

Demanding that other people (ahem) discourse with you in a way espoused by the philosophy of your forum software seems, at best, counterproductive, and at worst, openly hostile.

One wonders, would the result have been the same if such "sarcasm" had been used in praise of the library? Would it have been ignored due to "tone", and "not meeting Discourse's goal"?

Speaking of which, what? If I sign up for a support forum, I'm signing up for that. If FormumSoft 1.1's backend engine and developers are all about 'increasing awareness of mung beans', am I somehow at fault because OtherSoftwareDeveloperCo decides to use their engine, whilst I personally have disdain for mung beans?

Re: "Getting started with Ember.Js is easy." - No it isn't

#209
I'm going to offer some unsolicited advice. The constructive way to deal with a project that you find interesting but undocumented or otherwise unpolished is to attack. Attack the bugs one by one as you hit them. Go straight to the source and read, read, read.

Ain't nobody got time for that?

Ah, but grasshopper, it seems hugely difficult to you because you lack practice. If you get in the habit of attacking code like this, you will get faster and faster at it. And then the next time a project comes along that's cool, bleeding-edge, and undocumented, you'll just pick it up and be working in no time.

Reading is the secret weapon that turns a mediocre programmer into a great programmer. You need to read a lot of other people's source code. And a situation like the one in this post is ideal: you have a specific problem you're trying to solve, and you have access to all the relevant source code.

If you really don't have time because you need to ship yesterday, then why are you trying to use pre-1.0 software? Go use something boring and proven.

Re: "Getting started with Ember.Js is easy." - No it isn't

#210
post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another thing that would really help Ember's popularity are screencasts, something like egghead.io, where you'd show off some more advanced stuff. I know that they'd probably be a lot of work to make and to keep up to date, but they are pretty invaluable for getting users up to speed. And the time spent doing these is an investment, you guys would spend less time answering questions and you'd probably have more commi…

There are a few Ember screencasts: https://peepcode.com/products/emberjs http://railscasts.com/episodes/408-ember-part-1 http://railscasts.com/episodes/410-ember-part-2 Unfortunately, both cost money at the moment but I've heard they're worth it.

Thanks, I'm aware of those. Nevertheless, three paid screencasts by third parties aimed mostly at beginners are not the same as a long-term effort made by the Ember team to make these videos and keep them up to date. IIRC, the Rails team was putting out like a video every month or so. This might be one of the things that made people aware of Rails since even non-Rails devs were aware of these videos and eventually, some of them were tempted to check out what the commotion was all about and eventually switched. If you show people how much one can do with Ember in say 10 minutes, more people will be interested in the framework.

Edit: Now that I'm rereading my post, it sounds really entitled and arrogant when it was not supposed to. It's more like "if I were on the Ember team, here's what I'd try to do".

Post reply on HN