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Diamonds Are Bullshit

blog.priceonomics.com

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Re: Diamonds Are Bullshit

#201

Post by drivebyacct2 »

rayiner wrote: post #115
drivebyacct2 wrote: post #17

Maybe I'm spoiled as a nerdy (and interested in nerdy) gay guy, but I pity those in this thread saying that their fiancee wouldn't listen to reason about this. It slays me that "tradition" is so important to people that they will waste such vast amounts of money and prop up such a gross, violent industry in the face of reason.

It irks me a little bit that the issue is painted as one of "reason" versus lack thereof. There is a rationality in adhering to social convention. My wife is a diamond nerd, as well as one of the most rational people you'll ever meet, and she'd explain it this way: the diamond is a test that serves various useful purposes from the perspective of the woman: 1) It demonstrates the man's ability to provide; 2) It demons…

I'm sorry but those reasons are absurd. That is actually more abhorrent than anything I was imagining. I need to prove my ownership of my woman and have to buy her expensive things to prove my worth? shudder. I feel gross.

Re: Diamonds Are Bullshit

#202

Post by pifflesnort »

rayiner wrote: post #133
clicks wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) It demonstrates the man's ability to provide; 2) It demonstrates the man's willingness to forgo the other things he could buy with the money for a gift for her that does not directly benefit him in any way; and 3) It demonstrates to the woman's peers her husband's social standing. To play devil's advocate here: If you substitute 'ring' with 'a $3k donation to redcross' you could still potentially qualify all of th…

It doesn't qualify (3), which is a very important one. I've got a daughter. She's only 4 months old, but I've had occasion to think a bit about this. I would not want her to marry someone who wasn't willing to give her a ring? Why? Reasons (1) and (2) I mentioned, sure, but also reason (3). It is the mark of a sensible man that he cares what other people think about him. People who buck social conventions sometimes b…

> It is the mark of a sensible man that he cares what other people think about him.

A sensible man only cares what other people think about him when it is to his benefit to do so. A foolish man cares what other people think about him all of the time.

> People who buck social conventions sometimes become trend-setters and are incredibly successful for it, but more often just make life harder on themselves and the people that depend on them.

In my experience, people who believe in marking the checkboxes of life have an awfully hard time discerning the difference between falling off the beaten path, and taking a shortcut.

> Do I want my daughter to be with a man that is willing to create headwinds for himself out of foolish principles and refusal to conform? All else being equal, no

It seems exceptionally foolish for you to rely on abstractions and proxy signaling (eg, buying a diamond) to discern the attributes of the person your daughter would be considering marrying. One would hope that the evidence for those attributes ought to be entirely apparent to her before that point.

Re: Diamonds Are Bullshit

#203

Post by gnaritas »

jpdoctor wrote: post #26
arbuge wrote: post #13

"So here is a modest proposal: Let’s agree that diamonds are bullshit and reject their role in the marriage process. Let’s admit that as a society we got tricked for about century into coveting sparkling pieces of carbon, but it’s time to end the nonsense." Hear hear, but good luck convincing zillions of single women that they'll be the first generation in living memory to miss out on their carbon.

The carbon is a proxy (which is missed in the article, among other things.) It's social signaling. Or to put it another way: How many $$ can your man throw away without incurring pauperhood?

> How many $$ can your man throw away without incurring pauperhood?

Which tells me the woman is stupid, and not a keeper.

Re: Diamonds Are Bullshit

#204

Post by drivebyacct2 »

sliverstorm wrote: post #73
drivebyacct2 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, the link to honest signaling is a bit lost on me, can you elaborate? Are you saying that people buy diamond rings because it's expected? I would hope there would be a discussion about that before going out and buying a ring. (And if not, I would consider that part of the "tradition" of: the man must propose, the man must spend a fortune on the ring, the man must surprise the woman on one knee, etc). Anyway, so…

I updated my original comment a bit. Does that explain things better?

Yeah, it seems even more useless or irrational though.

Re: Diamonds Are Bullshit

#205

Post by jpdoctor »

arbuge wrote: post #195
jpdoctor wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My wife wanted a ruby ring, not diamond, for our engagement. I consider this an amazing social signal: She is verifying that you have a proper amount of resources to burn, but does not want her girlfriends to easily calibrate how many you have. Therefore, she leaves them a little bit in the dark about what a great catch you are (because most women can't calibrate ruby pricing by just looking.) My compliments to you…

Good guess, but that's not the reason :-) She's from China and ruby is her birthstone.

:) My wife (also a PhD) accuses me of being able to formulate a theory for any data.

Re: Diamonds Are Bullshit

#206

Post by mech4bg »

Retric wrote: post #185
mech4bg wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's easy to say that but that's not how human nature works. When you buy things for other people, it is generally a positive for your relationship with them. In general, they are happier and think better of you. Getting upset about it and saying they don't 'really love you' is not true and not super helpful. Human nature is very hard to change, no matter how intelligent / introspective we become. Do you never buy yo…

Human nature only talks about the average, I know a few people that dislike expencive gifts as it makes them feel obligations that they dislike. Gift giving is a vary cultural activity which makes it seem a lot more innate than it is because most people you interact with share the same bias.

Absolutely. I'm not saying it applies to everyone, in fact I'm completely on your side - disagreeing with (and demonizing) giving a diamond because it's not how you operate is silly.

Re: Diamonds Are Bullshit

#207

Post by guylhem »

rayiner wrote: post #200
guylhem wrote: post #178

I see people talking about various things like the (1) (2) (3) arguments for a women to evaluate a man : (1) is the ability to provide; 2) is the willingness to forgo other things (opportunity costs to talk economics) (3) "is demonstrating to the woman's peers her husband's social standing." (signalling) Raynier posted this deep down in a reply which might be lost to you if you don't read all the comments. It would b…

Its' really hard to live life stepping on eggshells worrying about injustices to other people. At the end of the day, I bet most people on this thread drive, and there is very little else that humans do that does more violence to the environment and to other humans than the use of fossil fuels. It goes far beyond that. If you're an American, your comfortable life exists because of the American government's willingnes…

You talk about oil and injustice, but there is no reasonable cost effective substitute to oil at the moment, while there are better alternatives to natural diamonds - man made diamonds - which could easily become cheaper too.

> "If you're an American, your comfortable life exists because of the American government's willingness to inflict violence on other people to maintain our status in the world"

There are few alternatives with our current technology, if the american way of life is not to be negotiated, so let's leave that aside. In any case, when north america becomes self sufficient again or even a net exporter of energy, things will change.

OTOH, for diamonds, there does not seems to be any change in sight. They are a massive hypocrisy, with the huge negative externality of fuelling wars and human misery - and they are controlled by a monopolist!

I'm sorry maybe I'm too heartless and an economist in the soul, but I just can't dig this idea. Diamonds are awful in any way I can see them. And I miss my life partner because of this IT WILL BE A GOOD THING: better splitting up early : both the costs and the emotional attachment will be lower.

EDIT: you talk about taking a train, walking, relocating - that's not acceptable for most people; also it will cause them undue burdens. Replacing a shiny rock by a purer shinier rock is possible and simple. It just requires some cultural or legal changes (think bald eagle feathers) which seems already underway.

Re: Diamonds Are Bullshit

#208

Post by gnaritas »

eli wrote: post #157
betterunix wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about rings that convey some actual benefit to their bearer, like perhaps the ability to procure books and other supplies related to a child's education at no cost? Why make it a fashion statement, when you could make it something useful?

I thought part of the point is that it is conspicuous and expensive and, yeah, kinda wasteful. What better way to prove you have lots of money than by buying something expensive that depreciates dramatically in value once you buy it?

> What better way to prove you have lots of money than by buying something expensive that depreciates dramatically in value once you buy it?

A balance statement would be a much better way.

Re: Diamonds Are Bullshit

#209

Post by mech4bg »

erikpukinskis wrote: post #170
mech4bg wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A diamond ring is a signal that is _always_ showing, unlike something like a house. It's a signal to the world that displays someone's wealth, commitment, etc. This doesn't make it right, but there are numerous human psychology reasons why this tradition endures and so many people take part in it. Writing off people who want or provide a diamond ring as mentally ill (as many people in this thread seem to be doing) is…

I didn't say they are mentally ill, I said they have low self esteem and therapy might help them.

That's the implication when you say they need therapy.

Re: Diamonds Are Bullshit

#210

Post by gnaritas »

pyre wrote: post #20
stephengillie wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try sending her this article. I'd rather be single than marry someone who has so much more emotion than logic. To put it another way: If the ring is more important to the woman than I am, then she's not marrying me, she's marrying the ring. It's a huge red flag to me.

| If the ring is more important to the | woman than I am, then she's not marrying | me, she's marrying the ring From some women's perspectives the diamond ring is 'proof' of your love.

> From some women's perspectives the diamond ring is 'proof' of your love.

I wouldn't want a woman so ignorant.

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