Live data from Hacker News

In Australia, a home battery boom has helped cut wholesale power prices

e360.yale.edu

201–210 of 328 posts

Re: In Australia, a home battery boom has helped cut wholesale power prices

#201
post #156
post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...and then the "colonies" figured out how to weaponize it and turn the balance in their favor. Or, not quite: the workers are being exploited just like they were during the colonial period. But at least now their rulers have power over our rulers that they didn't have before. So they get to be happy about that as they make novelty items out of toxic plastic for Temu.

Modern China is a vastly better place to live than China of 60+ years ago. Many countries are nicer places to live, but 1+ Billion people are simply better off making the “exploitation” narrative ridiculous.

How about before it was partitioned into colonies of various European powers? Population of China 60 years ago was half what it is now (700 Million).

Anyway, the answer is both. They were being exploited 60+ years ago, and they're still being exploited now, regardless of if they can take the train away from the factory that they work at to visit their relatives over the holidays.

Re: In Australia, a home battery boom has helped cut wholesale power prices

#202

It started with a solar boom, many small home scale solar roofs popping up everywhere. Australia has a free trade agreement with much of the world, including China, and solar panels have literally dropped to 1/50th of the price they were in 1990 ($10/W to $0.2/W today). A shout out to the work that was done to establish dynamic grid pricing too. Anyway that caused power prices to reliably go negative during the day a…

Australia actually advanced the tech a lot in the 80s with PERC coming from UNSW but as a nation did nothing with it. One member on the research team transferred the knowledge to China where he got state backing to commercialize it.

Re: In Australia, a home battery boom has helped cut wholesale power prices

#204
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A 50% price decline doesn't imply there's 50% less demand for petroleum. If 6% less demand is all the margin consumers need to get their supply, then price can drop quickly. It's all in the margins.

What is the best way to learn more about this, are there any examples? This seems a bit counterintuitive to me.

Think about gasoline consumption in an economy. If gas is $1/gal in today's dollars you can make many trips, they're almost free. At $3/gal people do some prudent economizing. At $10/gal people stop driving and take the bus, carpool, etc.

Making the price go up 10x won't cut consumption by 90% though, maybe only 50%. Trades still need to get to the job, food still has to get delivered to stores and some people who make huge salaries will still drive to work.

During the pandemic fuel demand didn't go down by 50% and yet the price dropped dramatically. Sure office workers stayed home but that's not 80% of the jobs. Think about how much the gas price dropped vs how much traffic was still on the streets. It almost certainly wasn't a linear relationship.

Re: In Australia, a home battery boom has helped cut wholesale power prices

#205
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A 50% price decline doesn't imply there's 50% less demand for petroleum. If 6% less demand is all the margin consumers need to get their supply, then price can drop quickly. It's all in the margins.

What is the best way to learn more about this, are there any examples? This seems a bit counterintuitive to me.

Mankiw’s Principles of Economics. The concept being illustrated here is elasticity.

Re: In Australia, a home battery boom has helped cut wholesale power prices

#206

This is exactly what utility propaganda and PUC manipulation in the US has successfully stopped from happening. From NEM3 in California, to charging a high fixed fee for being on the grid in other areas of the country, utilities have manipulated rules at every step to prevent a future that has cheaper electricity for rate payers. They come up with rather fantastic propaganda about how ratepayers with solar are burden…

Isn't it because the US has a more entrenched "clean beuatiful coal" class of people?

Than Australia? Probably not.

Re: In Australia, a home battery boom has helped cut wholesale power prices

#207

Use EVs as energy storage. Millions of EVs form an energy reservoir. 20% of solar is curtailed now and q lot more in future, instead charge EVs. Pay the EV owners because they are creating a storage layer with their capital and power prices go negative hundreds of millions of times every year. No need of home batteries.

1. A couple orders of magnitude more people own homes than EVs; 2. EVs already are used as energy storage, but the thing about EVs is people want to use that energy to yknow, drive them.

Could it be that most people drive shorter journeys than the capacity of their cars with occasional long journeys?

I know that my next will need enough range for one particular journey to a relative's house but I only do that journey once or twice a year at most.

I could easily reuse the "spare" capacity the rest of the time and I'm going to lease the car so long term battery health won't be an issue.

To honest I think plugin storage to go along with plug in solar will be a game changer.

Re: In Australia, a home battery boom has helped cut wholesale power prices

#208
post #45

It started with a solar boom, many small home scale solar roofs popping up everywhere. Australia has a free trade agreement with much of the world, including China, and solar panels have literally dropped to 1/50th of the price they were in 1990 ($10/W to $0.2/W today). A shout out to the work that was done to establish dynamic grid pricing too. Anyway that caused power prices to reliably go negative during the day a…

If you read the article, most of the decline in gas consumption in Australia is from changes in industrial usage. Residential demand is only down by 6% and part of that is likely due to the effective ban on gas in new residential construction which started in 2023 in Victoria. Prior to 2023 residential gas usage was increasing.

So energy demand was increasing? Perhaps electric cars?

Re: In Australia, a home battery boom has helped cut wholesale power prices

#209

The program has so far spent $2.5bn, and installed 11GWh. That's just the cost of the subsidy (~30% discount), not the cost of what home owners tipped in. Utility scale batteries are now at ~$66m/GWh, or about ~$726m equivalent. It does not make sense for everyone to be doing a bespoke installation inside their own home. It is ridiculously inefficient. We are a society. We don't build our own roads, water, grid, scho…

Are we a society though? Margaret Thatcher famously said "There's no such thing as society" and a lot of people have been doing their best to make that true. There's no use pretending. Utility scale has a single political point of failure. Batteries in home do not.

For the record, the full quote is : * think we have gone through a period when too many children and people have been given to understand “I have a problem, it is the Government's job to cope with it!” or “I have a problem, I will go and get a grant to cope with it!” “I am homeless, the Government must house me!” and so they are casting their problems on society and who is society? There is no such thing! There are individual men and women and [end p29] there are families and no government can do anything except through people and people look to themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and then also to help look after our neighbour and life is a reciprocal business and people have got the entitlements too much in mind without the obligations, because there is no such thing as an entitlement unless someone has first met an obligation and it is, I think, one of the tragedies in which many of the benefits we give, which were meant to reassure people that if they were sick or ill there was a safety net and there was help, that many of the benefits which were meant to help people who were unfortunate—“It is all right. We joined together and we have these insurance schemes to look after it”. That was the objective, but somehow there are some people who have been manipulating the system and so some of those help and benefits that were meant to say to people: “All right, if you cannot get a job, you shall have a basic standard of living!” but when people come and say: “But what is the point of working? I can get as much on the dole!” You say: “Look! It is not from the dole. It is your neighbour who is supplying it and if you can earn your own living then really you have a duty to do it and you will feel very much better!”*

Just putting this here for clarity.

Re: In Australia, a home battery boom has helped cut wholesale power prices

#210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. The modern grid has little relation to capitalism. There is some private ownership, but there are massive government barriers to entry and massive regulation of the system.

Electric grid are excellent example of natural monopoly. "An industry is a natural monopoly if a single firm can supply the entire market at a lower long-run average cost than if multiple firms were to operate within it." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_monopoly

if anything it is THE natural monopoly
Post reply on HN