I have a theory that Claude regresses to complexity. It’s trained to mimic existing patterns - so the smallest grain of over-engineering or spaghetti-code is like a mind-virus, gradually infecting all future output and self-amplifying until all is spaghetti.
AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?
201–210 of 656 posts
Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?
#202I think of it more as "the automation of the stackoverflow engineer". In enterprise software, there has always just been a non-negotiable large volume of code that was required to be written. This has traditionally been offloaded by having seniors do the hard thinking then distill it into a jira ticket which could be handed off to an engineer that'd actually write the code and punch every hiccup into google along the…
While the picture painted here is viceral... I think the reality is closer to this..
Before AI, most big software was desgined and originally writen by a few key (founder-esq) architects. But they can only add functionality at human speed, so the team grows, and the quality of engineer drops as the functionality footprint grows. Eventually the functionality is much bigger, but most of it was written by a much lower quality engineer, and thus the code (even if functionally correct) is less efficient and less clean, and the big refactors a talented architect would have done never happened, so it just got bigger and bigger and more unweildy and bug prone and inflexible - until some new talented architects see the waste and build a startup to displace it.
With AI, big software can be entirely written by 1-3 people, plus alot of agent usage. Which means it can be refactored more, and the design kept cleaner. But this only happens if those senior architects are actually paying attention and controlling the design. If the agents are heavily automated and subtasaking and controlling the design, then nothing much changed, because the agents themselves are no better than the "stackoverflow engineer".
Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?
#203> bad engineers were always a liability This part of the article hits home for me. With AI, "bad" engineers can now amplify their "bad" engineering x10 across the organization. The most egregious of these cases for me is often long tenured engineers who have lost interest in the craft, creating a dangerous combination of having enough merit to ship but not enough interest to make what they ship _good_. I am still a f…
But sooner or later for AI to reach its true potential we need to have HOTL ie Human Out of the Loop. Meta prompting or using AI to develop the prompt by coaxing it to ask relevant questions , creating specs and going through multiple loops with LLMs - things like this can be a good start towards the final goal. Final means the over abundance of goods and services like the men of the millenium are suggesting us mere…
Alternatively, cutting out labor just results in mass poverty except for the moneyed few, and a new era of technofeudalism.
It seems pretty clear that the current crop of executives strongly prefer the latter scenario.
Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?
#204Earlier quoted context omitted.
People can switch majors. But despite me saying that, I think it's going to take longer than four years. It takes a while for people to realize that a dream is dead.
Some companies hire junior devs to adopt AI-first practices to then drag their seniors in the same direction.
This is a reliable recipe for turning your systems into an absolute clusterfuck.
Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?
#205Wait till we realize that nobody is buying the software we vibe code anyway.
We've seen this game before, with the Dot Bomb and 9/11. A lot of you have 6 figure jobs that will simply be gone next year after the election, never to return.
That winter lasted about 5 years until 2007 when the iPhone and social media sites like Facebook went mainstream. This winter won't end. Or more accurately, it is the end.
Maybe we should stop debating whether we're in a crisis and start looking at the 5-10 year endgame of the Singularity. We're entering the eventuality that many of us have predicted since the arrival of the internet 30+ years ago, that prices will get lower but nobody will have any money to buy anything anyway. The feeling that we're doing something wrong with our lives will continue to intensify. We'll try so hard, and get so far, but in the end, it doesn't even matter.
I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm turning my attention away from trying to play the job game with AI. I'm looking instead at how we can provide time/money/resources to the middle class after capitalism can no longer provide them.
A conservative friend of mine just read the Communist Manifesto by Karl Marx, which I didn't see coming, especially since he beat me to it. In the neurodivergent spirit of not being able to do anything alone, what if we all read it?
https://oll.libertyfund.org/pages/marx-manifesto
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/download/pdf/Man...
I'm predicting that it stops just short of what full automation can provide. Loosely the evolution of economics goes: hunter-gatherer -> agrarian- > feudalist -> capitalist -> socialist -> communist. And now solarpunk (or something).
The working class is looking forward to the next chapter, but the capitalist class is looking backward to neofeudalism.
Those two directions can't coexist, so what does the future hold? Well, it's always darkest before dawn:
"It's easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism." - Mark Fisher.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCgkLICTskQ Mark Fisher: The Slow Cancellation of the Future
https://www.scribd.com/document/835022535/Mark-Fisher-The-Sl... (transcript)
https://goodscienceproject.org/articles/the-slow-cancellatio...
https://mediationsjournal.org/articles/end-of-world
If the endgame of capitalism is that it inevitably eats itself, then the game now isn't how to get more money and do nothing with it, but instead how to start doing something with no money.
I should add that even if I'm exploring anti-capitalist futures, that doesn't make me socialist. I don't like the 6 hour daily work requirement of many socialist societies. I think we can do better than that and get closer to 0, so that we can shrug off wage slavery and finally get real work done.
Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?
#206> bad engineers were always a liability This part of the article hits home for me. With AI, "bad" engineers can now amplify their "bad" engineering x10 across the organization. The most egregious of these cases for me is often long tenured engineers who have lost interest in the craft, creating a dangerous combination of having enough merit to ship but not enough interest to make what they ship _good_. I am still a f…
This is me to a tee. I think I'm a fairly good software engineer, and I loved building software and mentoring more junior engineers who I thought had both ability and a good attitude. I also think I was a pretty pragmatic engineer (I was not an "architecture astronaut"), but I did enjoy the craft of getting into the nitty gritty details of software. The past 5-10 years or so saw me pretty beaten down though with soft…
In retrospect, the golden age was the pre-internet era. Some rose-colored glasses maybe, but as I remember it:
Paying for software was the norm, so it was more clear what the "product" was, and software writers had a direct incentive to write better software.
Updates could not be pushed out so you had to be pretty sure your code worked before you shipped it. Having to ship physical media to all your customers for a bug fix was very expensive. Any new release was a big deal, so you had to put some real thought into what features it should contain.
Significant amounts of your development time were not spent trying to work around browser bugs, or differences in browsers, or supporting random old browsers that your customers still use for .
Stack churn was much slower. The feeling of constantly trying to keep up with a treadmill was much less.
Users, while often not technology experts, were a much more competent slice of people than the general public who showed up when they got internet service and a computer at home.
The only ads were in print in trade magazines or publications like Computer Shopper. Yes, people actually used to buy a magazine that was nothing but ads.
Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?
#207It wasn't that long ago that many were demanding writing code be a required subject in elementary school.
It still should be. Any educator worth their salt should be able to connect the dots on where all of this leads.
I always joke with my wife and invoke a line from this [1] Art Bell episode "the disasters that are coming..."
People really don't seem to consider that our civilization is remarkably fragile and dependent on humans. Any given system can just fail at a moment's notice and you need people around who know how not to panic and what to do.
We seem to be adamant at disproving this reality for some weird reason (money, duh), but life isn't going to be fun when a large portion of the population needs a chat bot to do any form of work. And it's worth asking: what population will be left if we submit all of our faculties to LLMs? My guess is one that's either limited in size or practically inert.
An outright idiocracy doesn't have to happen, but we sure as hell seem to be speed-running our way there. It's actually worth watching Idiocracy and Wall-E and just contemplating "do I really want to live in this world?" Because, at least right now, we're charting course directly toward that.
Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?
#208Earlier quoted context omitted.
All fields are basically over as a long term career besides perhaps prostitutes and even there I'm not entirely sure. But the questions of how soon and by how much matter a lot. Being early is the same as being wrong a clever guy once said.
no programming is verifiable, and the major LLM companies are focused on it. its the first domino to fall by probably 5+ years
If you believe that I've got a halting problem oracle to sell to you.
Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?
#209I think it is less about junior/mid engineers, and more just about the kinds of work inexperienced/cheap developers are often doing: assembly line, JIRA-ticket-taker type development. This is especially impacting Indian tech workers in the US [0] since these are often the types of roles that InfoSys and other foreign tech consulting firms are staffing. The new $100,000 fee to sponsor an H1B visa has made it difficult…
What's with people using the number "0" for their first reference? I have only ever seen that practice here at Hacker News.
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-based_numbering, e.g. “computer programmers might use zeroth in situations where others might use first”.
Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?
#210I think of it more as "the automation of the stackoverflow engineer". In enterprise software, there has always just been a non-negotiable large volume of code that was required to be written. This has traditionally been offloaded by having seniors do the hard thinking then distill it into a jira ticket which could be handed off to an engineer that'd actually write the code and punch every hiccup into google along the…
I think AI is getting pretty good at generating the tickets as well. Not amazing, but it feels like ticket generation today is where code generation was a year ago. I wonder if there's an agent harness that would work well for requirements gathering.
Not really in my experience. I’d much rather have just the prompt rather than the seven paragraph slop