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Illinois just passed a law that puts Linux on the hook for age verification

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Re: Illinois just passed a law that puts Linux on the hook for age verification

#201

Post by otterley »

DennisP wrote: post #195
kube-system wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Our FOSS code is constitutionally protected free speech and I would defend on those grounds. You have precisely zero additional speech rights as a FOSS project than any other organization has. If "free speech" was a valid defense for you, then Meta would be doing the same. > The technical design of the project just makes it so no one can force changes on the distro unwanted by the maintainer team regardless of any…

Unless the PGP decision has been overturned, code as free speech is in fact a valid defense. If the government couldn't stop code they claimed were "munitions" from getting distributed, then it seems unlikely that they'll stop a Linux distro. Corporations do whatever seems most profitable. We can't base our understanding of constitutional rights on whether Meta decides to defend them.

There was no "PGP decision." You're making that up.

Re: Illinois just passed a law that puts Linux on the hook for age verification

#202

Post by aleph_minus_one »

lrvick wrote: post #145
otterley wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a lot of remedies available to a court with respect to a recalcitrant party, ranging from an injunction to remove your product from the market to fines and imprisonment. Again, speak with your attorney. Do not try to "hack the law" yourself; many who have tried have regretted it later.

No need to hack the law. Our FOSS code is constitutionally protected free speech and I would defend on those grounds. The technical design of the project just makes it so no one can force changes on the distro unwanted by the maintainer team regardless of any courtroom outcomes. Like, what if someone made a law that said Bitcoin nodes must KYC? They could make the law I guess, and the international network operators…

> No need to hack the law. Our FOSS code is constitutionally protected free speech and I would defend on those grounds.

"Der Proceß" [The Trial] by Franz Kafka is just a realistic description of the court system (Franz Kafka studied law).

Re: Illinois just passed a law that puts Linux on the hook for age verification

#203

Post by lrvick »

bluGill wrote: post #148
lrvick wrote: post #89

Linux distro founder here (stagex) I will never be compelled to implement this, and would never merge it. Every release requires quorum signatures by an international maintainer team, and the distro is designed to work offline-first, with some variants not even supporting network drivers in the kernel, so Illinois legislators can eat shit.

They can stop you from doing any work on the project. They can even fine or jail you for work done after the law takes affect that the international committee doesn't allow. Which is to say you can be forced to stop work. Though if you don't live in IL it is unclear how this affects you.

Some time in jail or having to fight a fine for refusing to implement features in the constitutionally protected free speech code they author? If that is what it takes.

I do not want to go to jail, but if that is the only way to get to an outcome where people have confidence they can not be forced to add unwanted code to open source projects, so be it. But that is a pointless thought experiment because it will never happen.

I do not think anyone would be stupid enough to jail a FOSS developer for not agreeing to compelled speech, and if they did, an army of lawyers would be lining up to take the case I expect, with the full support of the public. It would be an insane thing to attempt.

We must loudly push back on the chilling effects intended here. Our free speech to write or not write any code we want will not be compromised.

Re: Illinois just passed a law that puts Linux on the hook for age verification

#204

Post by RealWed5 »

twothreeone wrote: post #78
edwinjm wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A Linux distribution is

So presumably the next step is they move their servers out of the US and then DA's target the Linux Foundation directly (e.g., coerce the kernel to take a change by some Meta engineers that "attests" a device when said option is compiled in, then force it as default on.. so in Debian you'd get an "Illinois"-kernel variant). At which point the only move is to relocate the foundation to another country, which will then…

"another country" is drafting this same law right now.

Re: Illinois just passed a law that puts Linux on the hook for age verification

#205

Post by JoshTriplett »

guywithahat wrote: post #47
bnjms wrote: post #27

So in red states porn is being used, and in blue states TikTok and Instagram are being used. Is anyone tracking who is behind the concerted efforts here? For example, which organizations, executives, lobbyists and politicians are valid and responsible parties?

I used to run a parental controls startup and after talking to lots of parents, I can tell you this sentiment is shared among most parents. Parents on both sides of the isle think they're going to keep their teenagers off the internet forever, I had parents look me straight in the face and say their child wouldn't be allowed online until she was 16. Parents aren't interested in the nuance of good and bad guys, they s…

Any advice on how to dismantle and counter such arguments, individually and at scale?

Re: Illinois just passed a law that puts Linux on the hook for age verification

#206

Post by JoshTriplett »

xp84 wrote: post #136

Serious question: This is a out-of-box "ask for age" requirement. No one is "verifying" anything. Why are we using this misleading headline? Face scans, ID cards, all that stuff that makes everyone nervous, are specifically not a part of this. To imply that it is verification is propaganda. As a parent, I'd be very happy with this "age declaration" method, as I also don't think the 'verification' others push for is a…

Two reasons people are arguing against it:

It moves the Overton window, making worse things easier to pass in the future. And it enforces requirements on projects the state should have zero jurisdiction over.

Re: Illinois just passed a law that puts Linux on the hook for age verification

#207

Post by lrvick »

EGreg wrote: post #166
bluGill wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They can stop you from doing any work on the project. They can even fine or jail you for work done after the law takes affect that the international committee doesn't allow. Which is to say you can be forced to stop work. Though if you don't live in IL it is unclear how this affects you.

Governments can hire a hitman to go after you, if you say something wrong. So can international crime syndicates. Will this have a meaningful effect on chilling your speech? https://abcnews.com/amp/US/children-recruited-criminals-indu...

Pretty far fetched an Illinois legislator hires a hitman for a FOSS developer.

But to humor you, if they did, the distro would carry right on, so they would be taking a lot of risk with no progress on their objective.

I only sign like 1/3 releases these days so I am replaceable now. Decentralized control and decentralized trust was the whole point of stagex.

Re: Illinois just passed a law that puts Linux on the hook for age verification

#208

Post by soulofmischief »

misphrasing wrote: post #144
otterley wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> constitutionally protected rights Wait, which constitutionally protected right is that? I'm an attorney and constitutional scholar and am particularly interested in what right you believe is being violated here.

Code is speech. Forcing someone to implement something is legally-compelled speech, assuming no complicating factor like commerce.

Is is also clear that there are major deficits in our Constitution but that the amendment process has failed to survive a modern world.

Any of our original forefathers would recognize today's American federal government as an overreach from their indended form of government.

The only reason we aren't seeing a Boston Tea Party 2.0 over the recent string of coordinated assaults against our inalienable human rights is because surveillance capitalism is already coarsely achieving its goals of suppressing any civic participation which exists between the spectrum of ineffective political protest to the most desperate, radical action.

Some of those among us simply cannot drink this koolaid. A quote from MLK, Jr:

  I submit that an individual who breaks a law that conscience tells him is unjust, and who willingly accepts the penalty of imprisonment in order to arouse the conscience of the community over its injustice, is in reality expressing the highest respect for law.
Further reading https://letterfromjail.com/

Re: Illinois just passed a law that puts Linux on the hook for age verification

#209

Post by reverius42 »

lrvick wrote: post #119
greyface- wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good news: the legislation doesn't target you as an individual. "Operating system provider" means a commercial or non-profit entity that controls the Internet-enabled device's operating system, including the design, programming, or supply of operating systems for the Internet-enabled devices.

stagex accepts tax deductable donations via opencollective but we do not actually have a registered legal entity, so yes, probably fine. I mostly just want to make it clear this type of legislation is unenforceable and a waste of everyone's time.

> accepts tax deductable donations via opencollective but we do not actually have a registered legal entity

that, uh, sounds sketchy

Re: Illinois just passed a law that puts Linux on the hook for age verification

#210

Post by AtHeartEngineer »

pwg wrote: post #105
kej wrote: post #58

I feel like all of these laws are being designed backwards. Content providers, like MPAA films, should have to identify what sort of content they are providing. Then I can give my kids a device configured to allow some or all of that at my discretion. Requiring my kids' devices to advertise their age (or their age "bucket", as if that was a meaningful difference) to protect them is not doing me or my kids any favors.

> Content providers, like MPAA films, should have to identify what sort of content they are providing. Then I can give my kids a device configured to allow some or all of that at my discretion. If the intent were to actually protect children, then this would be what was done. "Protect the children" is just a subterfuge to get electorate support for voting for the foundation for a "1984 thought crime" style monitoring…

And surveillance capitalism
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