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Danish high schoolers will have to verbally defend written assignments

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Re: Danish high schoolers will have to verbally defend written assignments

#201

Post by Orphis »

cloudie78 wrote: post #168
azalemeth wrote: post #3

This is already the case for Master's degrees and above in Denmark. I've been the opponent examining students. We ask Master's students to give US instruction on a topic (drawn randomly on a card in front of them, from a list they know a few days in advance). They do a chalk and talk on a topic for about fifteen minutes with three to five professors being "dumb students". It works fantastically and at the end it's ve…

Hi, former student with social phobia and terrified of public speaking. Today: adult with no problems doing public speaking in front of hundreds. What fixed me: more public speaking and not having the option of avoiding the task.

Practice helps!

What also helped me is being so knowledgeable about the topic that I didn't need to prepare the presentation much (except for the slides and the general plan). When you know what you have to talk about, it becomes a lot more natural and relaxed for me.

I would be a lot more stressed if I had to learn a presentation by heart and it would probably be a robotic delivery.

So I did quite a few "surprise" presentations, with very light prepared material and a topic I cared about. Got me the practice I needed and I learned not to get "stuck" as if I forgot the next sentence. The presentation always flows!

Now, I have a talk at a major conference, and I'm afraid this won't work there, so I'll prepare my talk better this time, maybe even have speaker notes!

Re: Danish high schoolers will have to verbally defend written assignments

#202

Post by izacus »

BrandoElFollito wrote: post #105

This is and have always been the case for Masters and above across Europe. It varies for Licentiates. It is also often the case for exams in majors (they are often oral). So nothing innovative there

In my part of Europe oral exams have been a staple even in highschool and across unis. I was pretty surprised when I've seen that other parts of the world don't complement written testing with oral understanding checks.

Re: Danish high schoolers will have to verbally defend written assignments

#203

Post by aborsy »

The problem with oral exam is that it’s done serially student by student, which can be infeasible with large classes. The grading is also highly subjective.

Written exams are also not best suited to project-based classes.

What’s the best way to grade students in classes with coding projects?

Re: Danish high schoolers will have to verbally defend written assignments

#204

Post by noir_lord »

cloudie78 wrote: post #168
azalemeth wrote: post #3

This is already the case for Master's degrees and above in Denmark. I've been the opponent examining students. We ask Master's students to give US instruction on a topic (drawn randomly on a card in front of them, from a list they know a few days in advance). They do a chalk and talk on a topic for about fifteen minutes with three to five professors being "dumb students". It works fantastically and at the end it's ve…

Hi, former student with social phobia and terrified of public speaking. Today: adult with no problems doing public speaking in front of hundreds. What fixed me: more public speaking and not having the option of avoiding the task.

I worked in sales for a few years when I was younger before I started my actual career, I went from an introvert afraid of public speaking to completely comfortable breaking the ice with basically anyone in those years (mostly because I liked having four walls and a roof) and that led to me doing technical training/talks to strangers years later.

I still don't really like it but I also realised that dragons don't appear from portals and eat you immediately if you do it.

My missus is much like I was but she never got through it, she finds it fascinating that I can.

Re: Danish high schoolers will have to verbally defend written assignments

#205

Post by jltsiren »

subhobroto wrote: post #143
jltsiren wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two points: There are two kinds of engineers in Finland. Some received a more theoretical education at research universities. Most went to more applied institutions that focus more on practical skills. Regardless of what employers say, they generally prefer the theoretical engineers from research universities. Because the higher status of those universities attracts more talented individuals, because theoretical unde…

> because theoretical understanding tends to stay valid longer than practical skills, and because it's easier to learn practical skills at work depends. If you're building a datacenter and need welders to weld two very specific set of metals together, allocating a PhD in metallurgy to do that welding, I argue would be a huge misallocation of resources. Now your argument seems to be whether the PhD in metallurgy can p…

I had two main points.

First, employers favor applicants from prestigious schools over those from less prestigious schools, because prestigious schools are more selective. That seems to be at least as true in the US as in Finland.

Second, theoretical education is more useful in the long term, because it's a better foundation for learning new skills. It can be a disadvantage when you are trying to get your first job, as you have fewer practical skills potential employers would need right now. Which is why, from an individual perspective, theoretical education only makes sense in higher-tier institutions, where the prestige can offset the initial disadvantage.

Re: Danish high schoolers will have to verbally defend written assignments

#206

Post by whyenot »

aborsy wrote: post #203

The problem with oral exam is that it’s done serially student by student, which can be infeasible with large classes. The grading is also highly subjective. Written exams are also not best suited to project-based classes. What’s the best way to grade students in classes with coding projects?

Its serial nature also means that an evaluator's standards can drift from students with early exams to those with later exams. Oral exams can introduce issues of sex and ethnic biasing.

Re: Danish high schoolers will have to verbally defend written assignments

#207

Post by jonplackett »

noir_lord wrote: post #204
cloudie78 wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi, former student with social phobia and terrified of public speaking. Today: adult with no problems doing public speaking in front of hundreds. What fixed me: more public speaking and not having the option of avoiding the task.

I worked in sales for a few years when I was younger before I started my actual career, I went from an introvert afraid of public speaking to completely comfortable breaking the ice with basically anyone in those years (mostly because I liked having four walls and a roof) and that led to me doing technical training/talks to strangers years later. I still don't really like it but I also realised that dragons don't app…

I also had a sales job at uni, just selling windows. But it was great for making me much more socially competent. Highly recommend.

Re: Danish high schoolers will have to verbally defend written assignments

#208

Post by jrapdx3 »

viccis wrote: post #11
azalemeth wrote: post #3

This is already the case for Master's degrees and above in Denmark. I've been the opponent examining students. We ask Master's students to give US instruction on a topic (drawn randomly on a card in front of them, from a list they know a few days in advance). They do a chalk and talk on a topic for about fifteen minutes with three to five professors being "dumb students". It works fantastically and at the end it's ve…

>Of course, woe betide those with social phobias I can see this being a problem in the US when it comes to "accommodations" in general. Students with an ADHD diagnosis can claim it causes just about any difficulty and get accommodations for it. The local (top ranked, but everyone's seen all the stories coming out of the Ivies...) college here gives students with ADHD double time on exams and has them take it in a spe…

Treating many ADHD adult students some did take advantage of accommodations available to them.

Problems with test-taking varied, but common issues were getting distracted by extraneous stimuli in "regular" classrooms. Frequently ADHD students were slow readers and really did need/use extra time. But the biggest problem was test-taking anxiety, often quite prominent, contributing to difficulty with tests.

Interestingly, more than not ADHD students were reluctant to ask for accommodations. Some never availed themselves of this benefit. Others only used part of the options they could use.

In my practice were a number of ADHD adults admitted to nursing school, some having serious academic difficulties and eventually asking for accommodations. The assistance was effective. Notably, none of these student-patients failed or dropped out, all graduated. A pleasant footnote to add is a subset of these nurses developed exceptional skill earning them leadership positions in their institutions.

Reputable clinicians wouldn't give an ADHD diagnosis or support academic accommodations without sufficient clinical evidence.

Re: Danish high schoolers will have to verbally defend written assignments

#209

Post by otterley »

fluidcruft wrote: post #171
otterley wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think you understand how universities work. Which US university did you attend?

I don't think you understand how hiring, promotion and departmental finances works at US universities for roughly the last two decades.

I am very well aware, having close relationships with multiple faculty professors in my family to this day. Practically none of it has anything to do with student ratings.

Which university did you attend? I asked you once already; put up or shut up.

Re: Danish high schoolers will have to verbally defend written assignments

#210

Post by snapetom »

cloudie78 wrote: post #168
azalemeth wrote: post #3

This is already the case for Master's degrees and above in Denmark. I've been the opponent examining students. We ask Master's students to give US instruction on a topic (drawn randomly on a card in front of them, from a list they know a few days in advance). They do a chalk and talk on a topic for about fifteen minutes with three to five professors being "dumb students". It works fantastically and at the end it's ve…

Hi, former student with social phobia and terrified of public speaking. Today: adult with no problems doing public speaking in front of hundreds. What fixed me: more public speaking and not having the option of avoiding the task.

The best class I ever took in any school setting was Public Speaking in my first year, first semester in college just to "get it out of the way."

The teacher started off with "you're all going to look like idiots and embarrass yourselves, and you'll have to get over it. Best you do it here now rather than in front of coworkers in a few years. She gave us skills and techniques that I still rely on today, and most importantly, the opportunity to practice.

I was a introverted going in to college, and that class didn't turn my into an extroverted social butterfly in 4 months. However, I have never been paralyzed with fear when required to talk in front of a crowd, and that has been invaluable in my career.

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