Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Norway imposes near ban on AI in elementary school

reuters.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

201–210 of 629 posts

Re: Norway imposes near ban on AI in elementary school

#201

Post by dragonwriter »

kristianp wrote: post #196
ori_b wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Banning it in classrooms isn't going to fix things, not when adults are broadcasting to students that (in the actual words of Sam Altman) "intelligence will be too cheap to meter", that (in the words of Darius Amodei) half of white collar jobs will be gone by the time these students graduate school, and so on. If intelligence is too cheap to meter, mental labor is a losing proposition. We've also spent decades emphas…

"intelligence will be too cheap to meter" has been shown to be wrong. They've started metering it. What makes you think school students are being told that? I've heard that they are told everyone will be using AI to help them write.

> "intelligence will be too cheap to meter" has been shown to be wrong. They've started metering it.

They’ve always been metering AI access (whether this is meaningfully intelligence is a separate question), but that doesn’t prove that there isn’t some time in the future where it won’t be worth metering, only that if there will be, it isn’t here yet.

OTOH, it is still worth noting that from a a consumer-of-the-service perspective, the trend is for more metering, not less (even if that is due at least in part to the rollback off unsustainable subsidies and not to the fundamnetal shifting what is sustainable farther from unmetered access.)

Re: Norway imposes near ban on AI in elementary school

#202

Post by ares623 »

2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #187
ares623 wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

[flagged]

Yes, I hoped it would've come across as so without the /s. Just goes to show where our fellow engineers are at. "Memory safety is humanity's last problem. Once we solve that then all of life's problems will naturally follow."

Re: Norway imposes near ban on AI in elementary school

#203

Post by ori_b »

kristianp wrote: post #196
ori_b wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Banning it in classrooms isn't going to fix things, not when adults are broadcasting to students that (in the actual words of Sam Altman) "intelligence will be too cheap to meter", that (in the words of Darius Amodei) half of white collar jobs will be gone by the time these students graduate school, and so on. If intelligence is too cheap to meter, mental labor is a losing proposition. We've also spent decades emphas…

"intelligence will be too cheap to meter" has been shown to be wrong. They've started metering it. What makes you think school students are being told that? I've heard that they are told everyone will be using AI to help them write.

Do you think they're too illiterate to read what industry leaders are saying? I assure you they're not.

Re: Norway imposes near ban on AI in elementary school

#204

Post by embedding-shape »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #123
joe_mamba wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>A sizable portion of the US adult population effectively can't read, write and comprehend text. Yes and AI isn't to blame for that as adults predate AI. It's the governments, schools, teachers, parents, teacher's unios, who taught them(or more accurately didn't teach them) and graduated them out of school anyway regardless just so they don't look bad in statistics. Sorry but if you graduate people out of high school…

Nobody is blaming AI. The point is we don’t have the luxury of throwing nonsense at our kids when they’re illiterate. Particularly not nonsense where all the evidence shows it harms on average more than it helps.

Just wanna start off by saying that with young unformed minds, it does probably harm more on average than it helps. But particularly for spelling and reading, it might maybe actually help?

To be efficient with AI and LLMs you need to be good at least two things, reading and writing. One easy way of getting better is by reading a lot, and writing a lot. Maybe if we coax the kids into understanding (believing?) that better reading and writing helps them use AI better, they'd pay more attention to it?

Re: Norway imposes near ban on AI in elementary school

#205

Post by tartoran »

jasonfarnon wrote: post #194
Saline9515 wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every parent knows that the Ipad is awful for their kid's education, but it keeps them quiet, so they happily take it.

I certainly believe that, but why did school systems jump on board, especially to be such early adopters as the 2010s, when the iphone was just a few years old? We used to use TV to keep kids quiet, but schools always talked about how bad it was.

For similar convenience as parents: less work on correcting homework and such

Re: Norway imposes near ban on AI in elementary school

#206

Post by bborud »

throw93934i wrote: post #197
bborud wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The the only conclusion I can draw from that is that you know nothing about education and even less about Norway. FYI: all Norwegians learn at least one foreign language in school. It is mandatory. That means you have to, in case that’s a big word for you. If you so prefer you will have the option to learn one or two more in middle school and one or two more in high school. By the time I was 15 I spoke three language…

> all Norwegians learn at least But this is not about Norwegian kids. And many imigrants have no use for Norwegian (obscure) language. I have polish and ukrainian friends in Norway.

So now you are arguing what? That the AI tools, that so thoroughly failed to educate you on education, should be used to teach immigrants in their mother tongue?

And keep in mind, if you move to a country you kind of have to accept that they won’t be able to offer you education in every possible language. In fact, learning the language is often a prerequisite for permanent residency.

I am not going to ask you how you envision that AI somehow magically solves this, since we have already established that education isn’t something you appear to know much about. The last thing we need is more speculation, fantasy or anecdote.

Have the courtesy of at least researching things online for more than 2 minutes before you expect to be taken seriously.

Re: Norway imposes near ban on AI in elementary school

#207

Post by b112 »

simonw wrote: post #199
lukan wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"and has given teachers back more powers to enforce discipline in the classroom. A big hooray for that." I don't suppose they are allowed to use physical violence again, still I would like to know what exactly you are cheering here for?

I was cheering for the phones bit. I honestly hadn't noticed the dark undertones of "enforce discipline".

That's not dark, that's love.

Re: Norway imposes near ban on AI in elementary school

#208

Post by solid_fuel »

ndriscoll wrote: post #165
solid_fuel wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disagree. AI has no business being used in 1:1 tutor mode before the hallucination and sycophancy issues are completely resolved. As is, I can easily see it being a hindrance to building actual understanding. Just one example - it's very common to see ChatGPT and the like respond with "you're absolutely correct! Great insight" to something that is a complete misunderstanding.

This is specifically a consumer model (or specifically ChatGPT) issue. e.g. IME codex does not do this, and will just tell you when you're missing something or somehow wrong, and Gemini does this weird thing where it tells you you're a genius and then immediately starts correcting everything you said.

Sycophancy is just one aspect of the problems I mentioned, though. Another huge one is hallucination, and one that is actually far worse than I thought:

> It’s been proven that when a model is trained on large volumes of highly factual and non-theoretical data, it learns to always have an answer. DeepSeek V4 Pro (1.6T params, 49B active, 44 AA Intelligence Index score) has a ludicrous 94% hallucination score on the AA-Omniscience benchmark, meaning on questions that it couldn’t figure out, it only stated that it didn’t know around 6% of the time, and the rest it confidently hallucinated an answer. GLM-5.2 scored a 28% hallucination rate, Opus 4.8 was 36%, Fable 5 was 48%, and GPT-5.5 was 86%.

https://arrowtsx.dev/bigger-models/

I think even a 5% hallucination rate would be terrible for a teacher, who should generally be comfortable with saying "I don't know off the top of my head but here is how to find resources to answer your question".

---

So, just to drive the point home, Codex has an 86.9% hallucination rate on the AA-omniscience score in this index https://benchlm.ai/models/gpt-5-3-codex - if you ask it something that wasn't sufficiently covered in its training data, it will confidently make up an answer nearly 87% of the time.

While you might think it is happy to correct you when you are wrong, you don't know that for sure since you don't know when you're wrong. Codex may have been happily agreeing with you about things you had completely backwards.

Re: Norway imposes near ban on AI in elementary school

#209

Post by charcircuit »

cryo32 wrote: post #101
aykutseker wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A calculator gives you an answer. An LLM gives you an answer that sounds like it already checked itself.

Not quite. The LLM gives you a statistically probable sounding token stream. The calculator gives you a qualified answer within documented and deterministic limits of the device. No one knows how to use either.

That is GPT-3. Modern models are rewarded based off the accuracy of their responses.

Re: Norway imposes near ban on AI in elementary school

#210

Post by varenc »

zemvpferreira wrote: post #100
irishcoffee wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kids can read, write, and comprehend text at 8. I don’t even like LLMs and I’m against this mess. Imagine having regulations rolled out when we were 8 saying “you can’t use the internet!” And I was running my own websites by 10 years old. Let’s stop pretending this tech is as interesting as we wish it was. If we want to ban models in school, ban laptops/chromebooks with internet. I don’t see the difference at this po…

From what I can tell the average school at best can aspire to teach kids how to work and how to socialize. That's it. I'd personally be very happy with computers mostly going away from school too. Most actual learning and exploring will hopefully happen at home.

Those are important skills schools teach, but I'm skeptical that most learning happens at home. I strongly suspect most adults learned to read and write because of the education they received in school, not home. Especially when it comes to the high school level and learning things like how to structure an essay or more advanced math. I doubt many parents are having their 16 year olds write essays and do trigonometry problems on the weekend.
Post reply on HN