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Home alone: Remote work, isolation, and mental health

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Re: Home alone: Remote work, isolation, and mental health

#201

Post by wqaatwt »

zwaps wrote: post #148
nextos wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My statement obviously referred to major cities, which is where most IT jobs are, as I indicated remote work allows you to leverage cheaper locations. Take for example Oxford. A typical rental will be around £1,600 pcm. The median pre-tax salary is around £50,000, which converts to around £3,100 net. So, the apartment is actually more than 50% of your net income. Some programming jobs will pay a bit more, but you get…

In UK and Spain, computer engineers earn the median income?

Which to be fair isn’t that great in either country regardless if you work in tech or not. In major cities if you rent or have a mortgage (taken out recently) it’s basically poverty level.

Re: Home alone: Remote work, isolation, and mental health

#202

Post by wqaatwt »

fnordpiglet wrote: post #64
tchalla wrote: post #42

> Our results suggest that remote work substantially increases isolation and worsens mental health, particularly for those living alone. Another angle - people don't know how to deal with isolation if not their work. Remote work has accelerated an aspect that we already knew existed. Social systems are tied ONLY around work which is not healthy.

The people paid to be there aren’t your friends. They’re nominally “coworkers,” which is not a social relationship but a transactional one. The fact we’ve as a society replaced human social interaction with people acting a work persona for money is more sad than being lonely - this should be the state that is considered lonely. Being isolated in the way discussed is in my mind a process of reclamation to normal socia…

> replaced human social interaction

That was always the case historically. Outside of family people mainly interacted and formed social the mainly with the people they worked with. There is nothing modern about that if anything we have more opportunities to met new people outside of your close these days.

One thing is less stability, people tend to form less life long bonds when they change jobs ever few years instead of working with the same people for 20-30 years

> people paid to be there aren’t your friends

Well children are forced to attend school, does that make you can’t make any friends there? Its not that different..

Re: Home alone: Remote work, isolation, and mental health

#203

Post by wqaatwt »

zimpenfish wrote: post #70
obscurette wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being forced to interact with people you haven't chosen to socialize is good for your mental health and for society. People interacting with different people are less afraid of the world, more trusting etc. Clustering into echochambers is bad for society as a whole.

> Being forced to interact with people you haven't chosen to socialize is good for your mental health and for society. That may well be true for some extroverted people, yes; it is 100% absolutely not true for "all people". You force me to interact with people I haven't chosen and there's a reasonably high probability that I'll subsequently choose to never interact with you again.[0] > People interacting with differe…

> Citation needed for that one.

Current reality? Of course its more on the (social)media level. Significant proportions of the society in many countries seem to be living in alternate realities.

Real life echo chambers reinforce that as well if you only interact with people with similar lifestyles and worldviews.

> That may well be true for some extroverted people, yes

I would certainly see that’s the case for the overwhelming majority people (certainly not for everyone, though)

Re: Home alone: Remote work, isolation, and mental health

#204

Post by wqaatwt »

sdevonoes wrote: post #159
nozzlegear wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I worked in an office, there was no policing of communication or reading books on effective communication to influence people (??) – people were just normal ass people.

Well, I think there’s some difference between talking to a colleague and taking to your manager (or to your manager’s manager). One cannot talk shit in front of the latter (e.g., “this company sucks”) without fear of being laid off.

I mean maybe not in a vulgar and explicit way but it really depends on the environment and the manager.

Re: Home alone: Remote work, isolation, and mental health

#205

Post by wqaatwt »

watwut wrote: post #188
nozzlegear wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I worked in an office, there was no policing of communication or reading books on effective communication to influence people (??) – people were just normal ass people.

The usual expectation is that you wont discuss politics or personal topics. You are expected to not ask about other peoples health either. The other completely normal expectation is that you will limit general chit chat, unless you are at unusually slacky workplace.

That’s really cultural, though. In a lot of places those topics are generally more than acceptable and maybe even expected (in moderation at least)

Re: Home alone: Remote work, isolation, and mental health

#206

Post by zimpenfish »

wqaatwt wrote: post #203
zimpenfish wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Being forced to interact with people you haven't chosen to socialize is good for your mental health and for society. That may well be true for some extroverted people, yes; it is 100% absolutely not true for "all people". You force me to interact with people I haven't chosen and there's a reasonably high probability that I'll subsequently choose to never interact with you again.[0] > People interacting with differe…

> Citation needed for that one. Current reality? Of course its more on the (social)media level. Significant proportions of the society in many countries seem to be living in alternate realities. Real life echo chambers reinforce that as well if you only interact with people with similar lifestyles and worldviews. > That may well be true for some extroverted people, yes I would certainly see that’s the case for the ov…

> Real life echo chambers reinforce that as well if you only interact with people with similar lifestyles and worldviews.

I'm not sure that's a truism. But we'll have to agree to disagree here.

Certainly the reverse (anti-echo chambers?) isn't true (which casts doubt on the original statement, for me): cf current US Republicans politicians who constantly interact with people that have different lifestyles and worldviews[0] without it having the slightest effect on their own worldview.

See also: anti-vaxxers, flat earthers, and, extreme[1] religious people; all of whom cannot fail to mix with people of opposing views nearly every day without it changing their minds.

[0] As a small example, they mingle, have lunch, holiday, serve on committees with, etc., their Democrat colleagues all the time and yet not a shred of sanity rubs off on them.

[1] The more culty end of the spectrum; you know the ones.

Re: Home alone: Remote work, isolation, and mental health

#207

Post by watwut »

bonoboTP wrote: post #190
watwut wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone playing ping pong, VR or going to gym in work is not "putting in the time and grind". They are engaging in hobbies. If they use that time to pretend they work a lot, they are just normally slacking. About the most absurd thing is twisting the people who socialize in office building for fun into grinding hard workers.

I didn't realize that was what you're thinking about. Well yeah, those guys invest in social connections at work, while you are not. Alliances, trust and human relationships will always matter, no matter how much people complain about this online. It will always be a benefit to be liked and known personally.

People sometimes throw this one out as if having real friends, contact with kids, relationships or hobbies outside of work was something only asocial people engage with. Only people who dont understand relationships are somehow capable of having them. When I put it like this, suddenly it sounds absurd, but that is literally your argument.

So, I have enough experience to go meh on this rationalization too. Nah, you can have trust, alliances and human relationships without moving all the hobby and relax time to work. Not just "can" in an abstract theoretical term, but they simply happen.

You can design the workplace so that the above is impossible, but that is the deliberate choice. The idea that you need to spend 12 hours a day in the workplace to be liked is a product of kind of management trying to create a cultish culture. Sometimes because they are lonely, sometimes because the frauds they want to happen are easier that way. But, it is not something that becomes a necessity in healthy workplace with various people. And people who are capable to keep relationships dont need that to have them.

And conversely, people with issue in the relationship department need them as a clutch, but then pretend it is necessary for work.

Re: Home alone: Remote work, isolation, and mental health

#208

Post by foysauce »

I'm seeing most people's arguments here explaining that remote work has given them the opportunity to voluntarily engage in extra curricular social functions.

I think to them, they are totally right that remote work leaves them with enough energy for them to do this, and they are happier for it. What I'm concerned with is the people who do not naturally have such a drive to seek this out, but for whom social activities would be equally important whether they realize it or not.

Personally I find the friction of leaving the house and making new friends in a city I'm not from difficult to overcome, and in this case I love having an easy way to meet people (and in some cases make some of my longest lasting connections) by simply going to the office 2-3 days a week.

Re: Home alone: Remote work, isolation, and mental health

#209

Post by j45 »

reg_dunlop wrote: post #11
j45 wrote: post #9

Working remotely or in an office requires a routine that includes having other interests and hobbies scheduled and on the calendar.

All things being equal, if a person works remotely, apparently they're more likely to trend reclusive. At the same time, a person working in an office has the illusion of social activity. Just because a person works in an office doesn't mean they're more well adjusted socially, or more active. Just because a person works remotely doesn't mean they're a recluse. Life requires effort and being engaged. Though as a remo…

Healthy solitude is a gift for reflection.

To an extreme, reclusion rids one of the input from living life around.

Need input and reflection to be an upward spiral, otherwise input without reflection, or reflection without new input trends towards putting a person into a downward spiral.

Re: Home alone: Remote work, isolation, and mental health

#210

Post by bonoboTP »

watwut wrote: post #207
bonoboTP wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't realize that was what you're thinking about. Well yeah, those guys invest in social connections at work, while you are not. Alliances, trust and human relationships will always matter, no matter how much people complain about this online. It will always be a benefit to be liked and known personally.

People sometimes throw this one out as if having real friends, contact with kids, relationships or hobbies outside of work was something only asocial people engage with. Only people who dont understand relationships are somehow capable of having them. When I put it like this, suddenly it sounds absurd, but that is literally your argument. So, I have enough experience to go meh on this rationalization too. Nah, you ca…

Yes, you need a happy medium. I know complainers who do zero socialization, never stay for social events even once per month, never join a Friday beer (sure, you can drink alcohol free) etc then complain they are overlooked. Humans are humans. Work and life is an artificial separation from the last few decades. It was never a concept before.

I'm not talking about doing all your hobbies in the office and staying 4 hours more than your official hours just shmoozing every day.

Working effectively with people requires some level of personal connection, whether that's shared lunches, chatting over coffee etc. Some just want to plug their earbud in and clock out at 5, and insist to only spend time by typing code in the IDE. I'm saying that this won't work, no matter how they complain online. Humans are social, you have to deal with it.

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