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Gemma 4 12B: A unified, encoder-free multimodal model

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Re: Gemma 4 12B: A unified, encoder-free multimodal model

#201
post #60

Am I missing something or are the Ollama versions of this ( https://ollama.com/library/gemma4/tags ) text-only for now?

To anybody else wondering: Seems like the models supporting image input are just starting to show up. https://ollama.com/library/gemma4:12b-mlx now shows as supporting it, but curiously the overview on https://ollama.com/library/gemma4/tags still lists it as text only. Cache invalidation remains difficult :)

Re: Gemma 4 12B: A unified, encoder-free multimodal model

#202

What's Google's business case for releasing open models? Don't get me wrong, I am grateful and appreciative of these releases. I'm trying to understand how it fits into their bigger picture as a for profit company? Are they not helping competitors build on the novel technology they have developed? Is it simply goodwill and/or marketing? Or am I missing something strategic?

The complete Chinese worldwide domination in this sector would be the alternative, since nobody else is releasing anything meaningful.

Plus every open model undermines their local competition by furthering open research and reduces moats, especially since Gemini as a frontier model isn't really competitive with GPT nor Claude for most applications.

Re: Gemma 4 12B: A unified, encoder-free multimodal model

#203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is demand for US open models.

I sincerely wonder why. Chinese censorship is only really relevant if you're doing anti China stuff, which is to say never, while the Western kind of model censorship ( a combination of copyrights and general fairness ) are something everyone's had to work around at least once, even if just for writing an interesting story.

[deleted]

Re: Gemma 4 12B: A unified, encoder-free multimodal model

#204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is one https://post.bot/

What model is it using?

I do not know which model specifically, but I saw the founder answering a question about how it's a small model that's focused on just this one specific requirement.

I expect it to be something like https://huggingface.co/OuteAI/Llama-OuteTTS-1.0-1B-GGUF

Re: Gemma 4 12B: A unified, encoder-free multimodal model

#206
post #120

I ran the Q4 quant (used with llama.cpp) though my "minesweeper" vibe-coding benchmark: https://senko.net/vibecode-bench/2026/minesweeper-gamma-4-12... The result is decent, but it had a few bizzare/trivial syntax errors I had to fix manually: it would do an extra closing bracket or paren a few times, and wanted to separate function definitions with comma. Not sure what that was about, but otherwise the output run ju…

It was almost certainly not trained for coding, as it's got both audio and vision input, is only 12B, and nowhere in the announcement is coding mentioned. It will likely not have good performance on coding in general, compared to other small models like Qwen 3.6 35B A3B, Gemma 4 26B A4B, Nvidia Nemotron 3 Nano 30B-A3B, gpt-oss-20b.

For 16GB laptops, Qwen 3.5 9B is the undisputed champ.

Gemma 4 31B is the top dog at small model coding, but is dense so it needs ~48GB unified RAM for full context. If you want decent coding on a laptop you need a lot of RAM. But this shouldn't be surprising, dev machines have always needed lots of resources.

Re: Gemma 4 12B: A unified, encoder-free multimodal model

#207
post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't tried this model yet, but I can run Gemma 31B w/ the MTP drafter in pure CPU at about 10tok/s so this should run at about 20-30tok/s on a decent CPU, it'll probably run at >50tok/s on any Mac that can fit it, and lots of people have a gaming GPU with enough VRAM. In terms of access to hardware being a gate, it's one you can hop pretty easily.

Could you outline how you are running the MTP drafters? I've tried LM Studio but no dice there. I'm probably missing something but I think llama.cpp and Ollama can't do it yet either?

I just build llama.cpp from scratch on the PR that has MTP drafters.

https://github.com/ggml-org/llama.cpp/pull/23398

Please don't use Ollama, it's a bad actor in the OSS community.

Re: Gemma 4 12B: A unified, encoder-free multimodal model

#208
post #120

I ran the Q4 quant (used with llama.cpp) though my "minesweeper" vibe-coding benchmark: https://senko.net/vibecode-bench/2026/minesweeper-gamma-4-12... The result is decent, but it had a few bizzare/trivial syntax errors I had to fix manually: it would do an extra closing bracket or paren a few times, and wanted to separate function definitions with comma. Not sure what that was about, but otherwise the output run ju…

> It roughly compares with GPT-4.1 (!!), released 14 months ago I think the mayor win for coding was reasoning. That's why such a small model can match GPT-4.1 in coding, but I suspect that GPT-4.1 still wins in general world knowledge due to bigger size.

> I suspect ... still wins in general world knowledge due to bigger size

Encyclopedic knowledge matters relatively little in perspective, given the expectable future developments: even the more knowledgeable of us will use that knowledge for reasoning and intuition (and we will have absorbed the intellectual keys during our training), but under our professional hat we should in theory be ready to go "I stand corrected" and "more precisely" with the actual data at hand.

I.e.: for the encyclopedic knowledge needed, the /understander/ will have a RAG subsystem and a corpus of knowledge to inquire upon processing queries.

(Corroboration: we can't delirate, and neither can the machine...)

Re: Gemma 4 12B: A unified, encoder-free multimodal model

#209
post #78

The big story here is the encoder-free part, which I still don't fully understand. > Vision: We replaced Gemma 4’s vision encoder with a lightweight embedding module consisting of a single matrix multiplication, positional embedding and normalizations. That's technically encoding, just without using a dedicated model for it like SigLIP? The Developer's Guide elaborates, it's still a 35M layer which I am curious is ro…

This is just early fusion basically. FAIR did this 2 years ago now: https://arxiv.org/abs/2405.09818 I've been waiting for something like this to be released since then. The annoying thing is that chameleon was multi-modal out based on the same principles, but this model is just inputs... (I'm curious how they did pre-training without having multi-modal outputs as well. I wonder if they just chopped them off rather t…

Some of the FAIR people moved to Thinky, and they also started doing encoder-free MM-LLMs. Now Google. This seems to becoming a trend working at small scale, but the difficult part is scaling.

Standard approach for training MM-LLMs is we train the encoder first, there are O(2-10B) good images on the internet, so encoder needs to see each image O(10-100) times, that is O(100T) tokens, which is more than the entire pre-training budget for most runs. That is the reason we train the encoder separately (smaller model, 2B active vs 30B or 200B active LLM); there is nothing magical about training the encoder and LLM together, it is just more token-efficient to train the image modality first.

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