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The Website Specification

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201–210 of 236 posts

Re: The Website Specification

#201
post #46
post #11

"Agent Readiness" will likely age as well as "Web 4.0 Blockchain Integration" has. (To be entirely clear, not because agents won't be a relevant thing, although certainly I have my doubts, but because I believe even if they are a relevant thing, requiring special allowances from sites undermines the whole point, and such things will only end up used by bad actors to mismatch what agents see to what humans see, and so…

I swear to God. I just want to go back to the 2000s where everything was just plain HTML and some basic CSS, if at all any, by default you got responsive design out of the box, readable text and super user friendly GUI from the browser's own default stylesheet. Today you open any website. Everything is a fucking component. A simple dropdown with a finite list? Has its own loader and makes 10 fetch requests for no rea…

Today you open any website. Everything is a fucking component.

We were doing the same things back then but with some nasty hacks to get things to work across different browsers. There's a reason why jQuery (released 2006) blew up, and plugin ecosystem was huge.

Re: The Website Specification

#202
post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 2000s, the golden age of web design, when people built inaccessible IE6-only mystery-meat navigation websites with Flash and HTML tables that dynamically loaded JS using iframes.

You're referring to the mid-late 2000s. I'm talking about the early 2000s. You can hate Flash all you want, but for all the HTML5 hype we had back then, there isn't a single authoring tool today that's not even equivalent to the original Flash Studio (by Macromedia). It was the only tool in internet's entire history where both artists and programmers could work on together. Or sometimes even without each other. What…

Tangential but I remember Flash being killed by Steve Jobs and then smartphones in general. The iPhone’s battery couldn’t handle it or in any case he didn’t want to support it. I remember Flash being so prominent when iPhone 1 came out that the decision not to support it was shocking.

Re: The Website Specification

#204
post #151
post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's funny because the argument against tables was always that they added extra markup a.k.a lines of code, only to replace them with dozens of nested divs, half assed CSS layout ideologies (floats and clear's, for example) and barely functional JS that all somehow needed to work in sync which was almost never. That's how NPM was born. Tables worked with 100% of the browsers. The alternatives needed polyfills and s…

There will always be a tension between those who want purely semantic documents and those who argue for a pragmatic allowance of layout to just be allowed in the document itself. It’s indisputable though that the modern BS of frontend tech is approaching an asymptote of ridiculous complexity. The divs go so deep that it is often pointless to even try to determine what’s going on from a web inspector. And I think the…

View Source on any major modern website and many (most?) others is useless. You get 15 lines with some cryptic webpacked JS references.

It must be that we now have a new generation of devs that have no experience with the beauty of the original web where others’ pages were legible and you could as a human easily read and learn from their source. I’m not saying there are 0 tradeoffs but there’s definitely a loss there.

Re: The Website Specification

#205
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I swear to God. I just want to go back to the 2000s where everything was just plain HTML and some basic CSS, if at all any, by default you got responsive design out of the box, readable text and super user friendly GUI from the browser's own default stylesheet. Today you open any website. Everything is a fucking component. A simple dropdown with a finite list? Has its own loader and makes 10 fetch requests for no rea…

The 2000s, the golden age of web design, when people built inaccessible IE6-only mystery-meat navigation websites with Flash and HTML tables that dynamically loaded JS using iframes.

I was also a time of web standards movement, birth of the Phoenix/Firefox, time of CSS ZenGarden. Beautiful time.

Re: The Website Specification

#206
post #69
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I swear to God. I just want to go back to the 2000s where everything was just plain HTML and some basic CSS, if at all any, by default you got responsive design out of the box, readable text and super user friendly GUI from the browser's own default stylesheet. Today you open any website. Everything is a fucking component. A simple dropdown with a finite list? Has its own loader and makes 10 fetch requests for no rea…

In the 2000s wasn't everything just misused/abused table layouts? Maybe we frequented different places, but that's how I remember it.

https://csszengarden.com/ - born in 2000s

Re: The Website Specification

#207
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that isn't that different from requesting the llms.txt version. Why not just make it so the useful content you want the LLM to focus on is easily retrievable from the same HTML the user's browser gets? The sanity.io page writes: > serving agents a bunch of HTML might just bloat their context window. That's only true if you assume the the agent can't extract the useful text before it goes into the model as tokens.…

How can it know which tokens not to read without reading them? and llms.txt is a single file for the whole site... not the same

I was using llms.txt as the general idea of providing an alternative version of your content for agents - whether that's llms.txt for the entire site, my-article.md instead of my-article.html for a specific page, or via content-negotiation as your link prefers.

The content (HTML or Markdown) only become tokens when given to the model. Agents use parameters to limit the output from their tool calls all the time, precisely to reduce the number of tokens they have to pass to the model. So when an agent requests content for example.com/page and gets a 800KB response, those are not tokens yet. It could simply call a tool to extract the useful info before it gives the content to the model. That would effectively produce the same number of tokens as requesting example.com/page.md or example.com/page with request headers preferring markdown.

So why not just make sure the useful info is easily extractable from the same HTML? Less work, no content negotiation on the server side, no worrying about maintaining two similar versions of the same content.

As an aside, I've always been against content negotiation for different representations of content. So if you really must maintain two different versions of your content (HTML and Markdown, say) make them different URLs. I agree with Roy Fielding on this[1]:

> It is a bad design trade-off to send a bunch of header fields on every request just to tell the server all of the possible variations of preference held by the user, particularly when there is a very small chance that any of those dimensions are applicable to the target resource. It has been a bad design trade-off ever since the very brief period in 1993-94 when folks didn't know which image format would be usable on all UAs and there was no CSS or javascript to allow for client-side adaptation.

> ...The caching impact of proactive negotiation is far worse than the one extra round trip per site for reactive negotiation, and even that round-trip isn't necessary in formats that support client-side adaptation.

On the caching impact, see this from Simon Willison[2]:

> ...you can’t deploy an application that uses content negotiation via the Accept header behind the Cloudflare CDN — for example serving JSON or HTML for the same URL depending on the incoming Accept header. If you do, Cloudflare may serve cached JSON to an HTML client or vice-versa.

[Edited to add: if the source of truth is already Markdown in your system, by all means expose that. What I'm discussing here is related to efforts to produce new Markdown or plain text output, in addition to HTML, specifically for agents]

[1] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/ietf-http-wg/2013JanMar... [2] https://simonwillison.net/2023/Nov/20/cloudflare-does-not-co...

Re: The Website Specification

#208
post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 2000s, the golden age of web design, when people built inaccessible IE6-only mystery-meat navigation websites with Flash and HTML tables that dynamically loaded JS using iframes.

Table-based layouts that loaded faster and rendered better than anything you see today, and even read better on actually existing screenreaders (who never got the memo that tables are supposed to be less accessible than CSS and changing into should make your site more disability-friendly).

> Table-based layouts that loaded faster and rendered better than anything you see today

Not true.

Re: The Website Specification

#209
post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 2000s, the golden age of web design, when people built inaccessible IE6-only mystery-meat navigation websites with Flash and HTML tables that dynamically loaded JS using iframes.

You're referring to the mid-late 2000s. I'm talking about the early 2000s. You can hate Flash all you want, but for all the HTML5 hype we had back then, there isn't a single authoring tool today that's not even equivalent to the original Flash Studio (by Macromedia). It was the only tool in internet's entire history where both artists and programmers could work on together. Or sometimes even without each other. What…

You're not talking about the web, you're talking about authoring tools. There are (or were) plenty of modern Flash successors; it's just that most people don't use them when you can open a game engine and target the web that way.

> You're referring to the mid-late 2000s

Things like hidden iframe hacks to load JavaScript were a thing as far back as the late 90s, and table layouts have existed as long as HTML tables have.

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