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Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

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Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#201

Post by bpodgursky »

cf100clunk wrote: post #98

Some numbers to consider: ~465,000 legally verified signatories to the federalist petition to declare Alberta permanently part of Canada ~360,000 status First Nations persons within Alberta ~330,000 legally unverified signatories to the separatist petition to hold a referendum to separate from Canada First Nations have successfully argued in court that as consultations with them are required by the Canadian Constitut…

What is a consultation? That sounds like a vague ill-defined veto over ever making changes.

I'm very open to tribal sovereignty in deciding what whether to remain in in Canada, but that should apply to tribal territory, not holding the majority of the population of the territory hostage.

Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#202

Post by nickff »

bawolff wrote: post #183

As an albertan this feels like desperate pandering to a tiny vocal minority to distract from real issues. Almost nobody wants this.

As a non-Albertan, this seems like a great bargaining ploy to get some leverage against the Federal Government, just like Quebec did. Most political parties in Canada seem to ignore and exploit the West most of the time, whereas they treat Quebec (transfer payments) and the maritimes (oil revenues and employment insurance) much more thoughtfully.

Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#203

Post by BadBadJellyBean »

Aachen wrote: post #199
matthewdgreen wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's what they said about Brexit. 52% of the population voted yes in a single election, and the rest got dragged along for a multi-year ride. Current polls put support for the decision at 31%, but it's too late.

> 52% of the population voted yes Huh? 37% of the eligible voters, much less the population, voted yes according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_United_Kingdom_European_U...

Everyone who didn't vote and had the ability, voted yes as well. If you don't vote you go along what the majority wants. So for me 52% is correct.

You have to vote for what you want or at least against what you don't want. Otherwise you are an enabler.

Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#204

Post by 8note »

consumer451 wrote: post #162
wk_end wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This seems extremely surprising - I've never heard of this sort of thing before with any other country. It's a little surprising - even as a Canadian - if you're unfamiliar with Canadian politics/history/civics, but Canada is more loosely held together than most other countries, including the US. And a comparison with the US is instructive, because Canada's founders were unifying the country the wake of the US Civi…

What surprised me about Canada is that sometimes there are fewer barriers to trade with outside countries, than between provinces! I recall someone saying "Canada needs an internal free trade agreement."

thats the current prime minister you are referring to

Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#205

Post by lm411 »

harwoodr wrote: post #186

It has been my experience that people always seem to want simple solutions to complex problems. The result is that the details of how complex those problems are get ignored or their impact is represented in a diminished way. In this case currency, debt, indigenous rights/claims and existing legislation are some examples of what is being glossed over and ignored.

Of these, I really only see "indigenous rights/claims" as a particularly difficult issue.

For currency, The Maldives, with a relatively small population and tiny GDP has their own currency. What is the difficulty in currency? Ignoring the fact that AB would probably just use the greenback.

All of these of these issues are surmountable.

Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#206

Post by Aachen »

joe_mamba wrote: post #147
kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is still in play as the failure of Brexit solidifies. They can follow the lead of Ireland and the arrangements for the land crossing with N.I.

>That is still in play as the failure of Brexit solidifies. To be fair, the failure is on the UK governance itself, not on Brexit. Other major EU economies like France and Germany have seen similar economic trajectories since 2020 as the post-Brexit UK, despite them still being in the EU. The post-2020 Covid and Ukraine crisis are difficult to isolate from Brexit to know if it's just Brexit alone or the world economi…

Sure, the country didn't go back to be a developing nation, but "similar economic trajectories" leaves a lot of margin for how much better or worse it could have been. Purely economically, about 2-5% of GDP growth seems to have been left on the table, and in terms of human cost it's really hard to say anything positive about closing international borders between similar and allied countries

Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#207

Post by lm411 »

nonethewiser wrote: post #30
jszymborski wrote: post #5

Important context, this referendum isn't binding, but rather a referendum on whether a binding referendum should be held. Separation is deeply unpopular, but Smith has been putting her thumb on the scale every step of the way, and this non-binding referendum isn't subject to the Clarity act in the same way that a subsequent binding one would be.

Is there actually even a legal process for leaving Canada? I would assume you can't just decide to leave. EDIT: oh, there is a process. thats the Clarity Act. This seems extremely surprising - I've never heard of this sort of thing before with any other country.

Discussing separation is okay when QC threatens it - hence the clarity act. But when AB wants to do it, they are just a bunch of redneck traitors according to the rest of Canada.

(Cue the "AB is nothing", "AB has no culture", folks that don't have a clue what they are talking about).

Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#208

Post by boringg »

nickff wrote: post #202
bawolff wrote: post #183

As an albertan this feels like desperate pandering to a tiny vocal minority to distract from real issues. Almost nobody wants this.

As a non-Albertan, this seems like a great bargaining ploy to get some leverage against the Federal Government, just like Quebec did. Most political parties in Canada seem to ignore and exploit the West most of the time, whereas they treat Quebec (transfer payments) and the maritimes (oil revenues and employment insurance) much more thoughtfully.

Exploit the West? Thats rich and definitely a western centric short sighted viewpoint.

Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#209

Post by 8note »

Henchman21 wrote: post #122
cf100clunk wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've put up some basic numbers in another comment that foreshadow what a futile exercise this is likely to be for the separatists.

If they force their opponent to chew through all their available resources leaving them unable to respond in other areas, was it really futile?

they arent that smart - they're burning through their own resources responding to trolls from their other policies like easy recall petitions

the resources for anti-separatism while trump is around are endless, and you dont need to spend time convincing or anything.

theyve really gotten their opposition more organized, and say, working on more ambitious projects like corb lunds anti-coal petition

Re: Alberta to hold referendum on whether to remain in Canada

#210

Post by Aachen »

BadBadJellyBean wrote: post #203
Aachen wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 52% of the population voted yes Huh? 37% of the eligible voters, much less the population, voted yes according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_United_Kingdom_European_U...

Everyone who didn't vote and had the ability, voted yes as well. If you don't vote you go along what the majority wants. So for me 52% is correct. You have to vote for what you want or at least against what you don't want. Otherwise you are an enabler.

That makes no sense to me. They didn't know the outcome beforehand; had odds fallen the other way, your argument would have stated that they voted no. Were they in a superposition before the results came in, voting both yes and no simultaneously?!

We can't know what they want if they don't or can't vote. Putting "they voted yes" in their mouth sounds insulting to me, but I'm an outsider to the UK so maybe it's wrong for me to say that

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