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Not alive, but not dead: disembodied human brains used for drug testing

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Re: Not alive, but not dead: disembodied human brains used for drug testing

#201

Post by lukan »

iwontberude wrote: post #200
lukan wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not normal adult behavior and he likely should have had therapy. But it is not necessarily pedophilia. Because that means wanting to have sex with children. The explanation I heard is he wanted to be close to children to compensate for his own lack of innocent childhood. Children don't do sexual intercourse. Now if he was a child in his mind, then I as a parent would surely not have gave my children to his care…

First of all children have sexual intercourse all the time. Many of my friends had sexual intercourse before 16, one as young as 8, it was between children, so no adults were part of this. So what you are saying is flawed. Even if Michael was a child in his mind, he was not inherently asexual. Treating children as incapable of sex is dangerous and you are giving a prime example. Treating Michael Jackson like a child…

I am sometimes with hippi people and there is a thing called cuddle puddle. Cold around the fire, people get close to each other. But can also happen inside, on some couch, bed. The thing is, this is not sexual at all. Just people enjoying being close with each other. It can evolve into something sexual under special conditions, but usually it is not. Especially not, when children are around. Rather archaic feeling of wolf pack gets close to share body heat and feel each other. All there, all calm, all safe.

So I don't know what happened in Michaels bedroom, was it the innocent or the weird or even sick version. But I certainly won't condem the innocent version in general. The world needs rather more of this very normal close bonding, not people being afraid of being close with children for fear of being called a pedophile.

"Michael was definitely a pedophile"

So I would like to know what makes you so sure of it, that there was a sexual desire?

Apart from that, you are right, that also children can experiment or be very early. But normal childrens play or adult children interaction is not sexual. So I don't see the final conclusion. Did you read the article linked above? The media reporting about it was anything, but not fair nor factual. Did you consider you might have been influenced by that? I certainly do consider that I might be wrong here with my judgement, but all evidence so far I read against him seems either fabricated or hysterical from the point of view of puritans.

Re: Not alive, but not dead: disembodied human brains used for drug testing

#202

Post by eudamoniac »

card_zero wrote: post #196
eudamoniac wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've thought a lot about this. If you experience immense pain for half a second, then immediately forget, it doesn't seem so bad. And anything bad that has happened to you that you completely forgot doesn't really affect you. Sometimes when I'm feeling ill, I'll think to myself, "If I remember having this thought, then this sickness is terrible, but if I forget the whole experience, it isn't. If I eventually forget t…

It wouldn't matter even if you remembered it, if it wasn't for PTSD. That and the waste of a day. The last question is strange, it implies that the goal of life is to fill up a trophy cabinet with golden memories and then, I guess, relish them for eternity, rather than to do things.

A life where I remember good memories is worth a lot more to me than a life where I do great deeds while sleepwalking and have no memory of it. What's the point of doing something if you don't even know you did it?

Re: Not alive, but not dead: disembodied human brains used for drug testing

#203

Post by lukan »

iwontberude wrote: post #199
applfanboysbgon wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a wide, wide range between "normal behaviour" and "sex offender". I'm fine with being weird, and have no qualms defending the right of other people to be weird. Maybe he liked playing with children because adults are evil and only saw him as a moneybag to try to extricate a payday from. If he wasn't harming them, it's not my business.

Normalizing children spending the night in the beds of billionaires isn’t just weird, it’s probably dangerous for children at large. Personal freedom isn’t a blank check, we control what is acceptable as society. Michael had a secluded ranch with private security to ensure we would never know what he did with the children.

Those security guards have been questioned extensivly by court, though. And they did not seem of the loyal kind, take secrets to the grave, rather the contrary.

Re: Not alive, but not dead: disembodied human brains used for drug testing

#204

Post by JimTheMan »

abtinf wrote: post #134
JimTheMan wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I highly highly doubt that by consenting to be an organ donor you are consenting to this. Unless you live in some incredibly lawless country? Organ donation is so very sensitive, and those who use the service are so aware of the sensitivities I think that you'd be insane to have such a reaction to this media piece. In fact, I'll go one further. I have serious doubts you were ever an organ donor at all.

Your doubts are solidly founded; I can confirm I am not yet dead and my organs have not yet been donated.

No worries. When you die, please let me know whether they are donated or not. :p

Re: Not alive, but not dead: disembodied human brains used for drug testing

#205

Post by VectorLock »

harvey9 wrote: post #185
VectorLock wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had the same thoughts "but won't i feel it THEN?" when I was getting an upper endoscopy. The anesthesiologist said you're in such a trance, dreamlike state plus with the inability to form memories its like you're not your real "consciousness" but something different. Sort of like your brain is in "limp mode" and its not really _you._ This was both comforting and slightly terrifying in a different way.

I do remember my lung biopsy where they went in down my neck. Maybe they give less drugs for that than for your upper endoscopy. My memories have a slightly horror movie vibe but I would not be put off having the procedure again.

You might have been dreaming. I had a memory of the doctor saying "clamp down" and I bit down on the endoscope and he said "not you." I asked him if that happened and he said nothing like that happened at all and it was just a false memory/pseudo dream. Or he was lying to me.

I remember there was a lawsuit when a guy left his phone recording when they wheeled him in for a conscious sedation procedure and the doctors and nurses were making fun of him audibly how fat he was. Seems like they're confident enough in people not remembering for them to do that - or being able to dismiss it.

Re: Not alive, but not dead: disembodied human brains used for drug testing

#206

Post by gblargg »

marshray wrote: post #146
gblargg wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> MASS TORTURE MILLIONS OF NON-PET ANIMALS EVERY YEAR ... just so we can all have cheaper Big Macs. Torture - the infliction of intense pain (as from burning, crushing, or wounding) to punish, coerce, or afford sadistic pleasure.

Oh the dictionary defines a word, that makes it completely different then

It's how normal people use the word: doing something specifically to inflict pain on a human or animal. Slaughtering animals for meat isn't torture. Keeping them alive while inflicting pain because you enjoy the experience, is.

Re: Not alive, but not dead: disembodied human brains used for drug testing

#207

Post by rendx »

cogman10 wrote: post #174
rendx wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you point me to a paper or other source that proves that the brain is the seat of consciousness? Or that disproves other theories? I am familiar with the works of Oliver Sacks, Paul Broks, and others, who have spent their lives researching damage to brains and the potential consequences for the psyche. I agree that it sounds like damage to the brain can have big impact, but none of that research, as far as I am a…

Three are a million case studies and studies on it. So much so that you'll find studies on the best ways to repair consciousness after traumatic brain injuries [1]. You can't find a single case study where someone's consciousness was notably altered due to bowel resection. Something that has happened all the time. Where are the people losing or having alerted consciousness after having their stomachs stapled? Their p…

Agreed.

Let's wait and see what happens with brain or head transplantation. :)

Re: Not alive, but not dead: disembodied human brains used for drug testing

#208

Post by rendx »

rcxdude wrote: post #169
rendx wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you point me to a paper or other source that proves that the brain is the seat of consciousness? Or that disproves other theories? I am familiar with the works of Oliver Sacks, Paul Broks, and others, who have spent their lives researching damage to brains and the potential consequences for the psyche. I agree that it sounds like damage to the brain can have big impact, but none of that research, as far as I am a…

If you're going full philosophy of science, are these alternative theories falsifiable in the first place? Much of this kind of argument turns into philosophy and metaphysics instead of empirical science.

Imagine what would happen if we transplanted a head, or full brain, and the consciousness self would still remain the same, like with other organ transplantation.

We'll see!

I am saying: we can guess, but we don't know. I am not saying it's likely. I just want to remain precise in what are theories. It is a theory that consciousness "lives" inside the physical brain, as much as it is one that it doesn't. It is physically possible that it exists energetically and moves and stays with "the larger chunk of body".

Re: Not alive, but not dead: disembodied human brains used for drug testing

#209

Post by acdbddh »

FrinkleFrankle wrote: post #154
acdbddh wrote: post #22

To be honest, if my only other option was to be buried, I would love to let my brain be connected to some machine that try to keep it as alive-like as possible. Just please don't remove my brain before I'm 1000% certainly dead.

True. You'd probably go crazy as a brain disconnected from your body, regardless of what drugs they give you.. But It'd be an interesting final experience, I guess. I do hope they're getting pain killers along with the anaesthesia, though.

I guess they would plug us some electrodes which we could learn to use to communicate. ;)

The brain itself doesn't have pain receptors, so painkillers would not make any difference. The only pain would be existentional ;)

Re: Not alive, but not dead: disembodied human brains used for drug testing

#210

Post by acdbddh »

JacobKfromIRC wrote: post #159
acdbddh wrote: post #22

To be honest, if my only other option was to be buried, I would love to let my brain be connected to some machine that try to keep it as alive-like as possible. Just please don't remove my brain before I'm 1000% certainly dead.

Another option is cryonics: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryonics It's not the same as what you suggest, but there's still hope you could regain consciousness, and this is a process that some companies already have infrastructure for. It is pretty expensive though.

this actually started to look promising recently, since https://eon.systems/ somewhat managed to scan and upload fly brain to the computer, maybe one day the same would be possible with the frozen human brain.

imagine waking up in the simulated environment...

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